Can enlightenment be sensed?

[WokiTheCat]

Okay just out of curiousity, lets assume a person sits zazen long enough to become more of a balanced individual, Could that balance be sensed by a person who doesn't sit?
Not in a objective "oh, Jim Bob seems in a better mood today" kind of way, but like in a subconscious/intuitional/sixth sense kind of way?
Is an individual's alignment with the present moment contagious to another individual at all, and could a person's experience of life be influenced by that individuals alignment-meaning they too feel at ease with this moment, just cuz there in the individuals presence? Even if the interaction is brief, like between you and a cashier at the market?
I know its getting in the hocus-pocus area, but I also know we humans are quite sensitive people, it's food for thought I guess.
.

[Dosho]

Woki,

Could someone become enlightened without zazen? I suppose, but zazen can be defined in ways that go beyond sitting. I would ten to think someone who is enlightened would have done zazen in their own way.

But I don't really think about enlightenment. All I know is that if I go looking for it, I highly doubt I'll find it. So, I don't try.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Tiwala]

I would think so, yes. At least to some degree, just as a warm smile or a bitter argument can influence another person. But I think we should not be attaching our own ideas to what enlightenment is like. Living in this moment is good, I'd imagine, but one cannot say that it is enlightenment, if my understanding is correct.

Gassho, Ben

[Jundo]

Hi Woki (Woki, might I get you to sign your messages with a human name ... one of the ways we can be a bit more personal around here) ...

First off, "Enlightenment" is not some frozen, balanced state like being turned into a stone or statue. It is more like a vibrant dance of grace, stillness in movement, through all of life. Dogen spoke of "Enlightenment which never ends" and how each moment is ... like each step of a ballet ... the pivot point of Practice. (Always on the edge of past and future too, with plenty of opportunity for the Dancer to trip and fall down on the next step!)

So, will someone recognize this about their own life? Will others recognize this? Of course! Do you not recognize the times when you see a truly talented and gifted dancer? Do you not know when you are "in the grove" in your own dancing? (In fact, the point about Buddha Dancing ... unlike ordinary ballet perhaps ... is simply our realizing that it is not only dancers dancing a dance but also the dance dancing the dancers ... the dancers as one and separate at once ... just Dancing Dancering Dance ... ) We dance through sunny days and rainy, sickness and health, good moods and bad, life's ups and downs, sand and water and mud, life and death ... each and all just the Deathless Great Dance that manifests yet simultaneously Transcends all such changing faces of life's show.

Some days we are more graceful than others, and even the greatest Russian Dancer can sometimes be two left feet!

And, by the way, "Enlightenment" is not about always being in a "good mood" as you say, Woki! Please see this recent post ...

BUDDHIST PRACTICE OFFERS SOMETHING GREATER THAN SOME ORDINARY "happiness" (the kind of "happiness" where one feels giddy all the time) ...

It is a kind of Joy (Big "J") that fully sweeps in and illuminates all the small human moments of "joy" (small "j") and sadness ... a "Buddha Smile" that we may feel even as, simultaneously, we sometimes shed a tear.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?11831-Writing-on-thoughts-mindfulness&p=118970&viewfull=1#post118970

Nor does a Graceful Dancer have to be "on stage" and Gracefully Dancing all the time! Even Buddha sometimes sits on the sofa, tells a dirty joke, watches football and farts! Even Buddha sometimes fall on her ass, tripping over her own shoelaces. Even Kannon sometimes loses her cool, sitting in the hospital ER worried about a sick child, crying and not knowing to whom to turn. Nothing Graceful about it ... just life.

Gassho, The Dance Instructor

PS - By the way, it is my feeling speaking to many Rinzai Teachers that they know when a student "passes a Koan" in their Way ... not so much by the "answer" of poetic words given in Dokusan ... but the glimmer in the eye, the whole bearing and way the student carries herself, the confidence that manifests an "AHA!" in the bones, how they open and close the door coming into the room ... the whole way they act and carry themselves around monastery life. Same for our Soto Way too. A good dancer manifests and proves in Good Dancing.

[Myosha]

Thank you.


Gassho,
Edward

[Kyonin]

I might be completely wrong, but enlightenment can be felt but has to be maintained by practice.

It's not like getting a black belt in a martial art and thinking you are a master from that point on. You have to keep on training if you want to keep the moves. And even so you will fail or divert from the path at times.

Can people feel someone's enlightenment? I think so, yes. It's something you see on how they act and the warmth of their acts.

But then again I might be wrong.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Kyonin]

Nor does a Graceful Dancer have to be "on stage" and Gracefully Dancing all the time! Even Buddha sometimes sits on the sofa, tells a dirty joke, watches football and farts! Even Buddha sometimes fall on her ass, tripping over her own shoelaces. Even Kannon sometimes loses her cool, sitting in the hospital ER worried about a sick child, crying and not knowing to whom to turn. Nothing Graceful about it ... just life.

Thank you, Jundo.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Mp]

Nor does a Graceful Dancer have to be "on stage" and Gracefully Dancing all the time! Even Buddha sometimes sits on the sofa, tells a dirty joke, watches football and farts! Even Buddha sometimes fall on her ass, tripping over her own shoelaces. Even Kannon sometimes loses her cool, sitting in the hospital ER worried about a sick child, crying and not knowing to whom to turn. Nothing Graceful about it ... just life.

This is beautiful Jundo ... I know these experiences. Thank you! =)

Gassho
Shingen

[WokiTheCat]

Thanks for the replies , just to be clear, I was a little hesitant to use the word enlightenment, as its a touchy word. If a runner is running he feels healthy, or as Kyonin mentions about the martial arts master; he needs to keep at it. I've read Nishijima say that when the ANS is in balance; heaven, when not; hell. As jundo put it ; enlightenment isn't some stone/permanent state.
Back on topic; not that I'm a big fan of Ekhart tolle but a journalist asked eckhart this question that seems relevant to the conversation :

JM: You know, when I walked in here, I had no idea who was going to be here. I'd read your books but had never seen you except in photographs. When you opened the door, it was like the sun was in this flat. I couldn't help but forget any reservations or shyness I may have had, and I almost burst out laughing.

ET: The reason for this is that in that act of meeting you, there were no thoughts about who you are or who I am. There was the openness of consciousness recognizing itself in another human being. And that is extremely joyful. And it's also joyful for someone who experiences that with someone else, because they feel more themselves in that moment.

Gassho,
Misha aka wokithecat

[Jundo]

One also has to be careful about one's psychological state when "meeting the Guru" ... just like being "star struck" when meeting any celebrity. How many times have you heard someone say, "oh, I felt such energy from him" when in the room with some Buddhist celebrity. Is it so, or just the person wanting to feel such?

I recently heard a story about Sasaki Roshi, a fellow of very questionable ethics, that reminds me of an old magicians trick. Seems he would have his young monks casually start conversations with newcomers to the Sangha, and in the course of conversation gather information about the person ... their marital status, career, any problems in their life etc. The information would be slipped to the Roshi who, during the subsequent first formal "Dokusan" with the newcomer, would miraculously seem to know so much about the person ... as if he could see into their heart and "read minds"! It might have all been done so casually, that not even the spies realized that they were part of a trick.

Buyer beware in the spiritual marketplace! Another trick to add to our "Guide to being a Guru" ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?11815-MUST-READING-The-Foolproof-Guide-To-Becoming-A-Guru

Gassho, Jundo

[Seiryu]

On the whole "guru-student" relationship I found this today and thought it was a very honest about how it functions from the perspective of Tibetan Buddhism.

Hopes its OK to add it here....

[WokiTheCat]

Ha, ain't that something Jundo. Thanks for the story. And yes could definitely be a placebo effect.
Gassho,
Misha

[Jundo]

On the whole "guru-student" relationship I found this today and thought it was a very honest about how it functions from the perspective of Tibetan Buddhism.

Hopes its OK to add it here....

Hi Seiryu,

I do not Practice in such way, but I did not think it a complete look at guruism. He really did not look at the many cases of abuse found in Tibetan Buddhism, Hinduism ... in Zen Buddhism too when the Teacher is too much a Guru with less than good motives.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/oct/08/tibetan-lamas-buddhism

I believe that the emphasis on the guru in Tibetan Buddhism is something of Hindu/Brahman influence more than the idea of the Teacher as "Spiritual Friend" typically found in other forms of Buddhism. But, again, such is not my Tradition nor my way, so I hesitate to comment further.

Gassho, Jundo

[Victor Chu]

Hi Jundo,

What you said reminds me of a book I once read regarding abuses from a teacher-student relationship in Zen. It was written by a female student. The teacher was at first very well respected by her all and his students, however he got involved in a relationship with another woman and started to not only neglect his obligation and responsibility, but also abused his student. I cringed reading it. The students seemed to be completely dependent on the teacher spiritually, mentally, and in some cases physically and financially. Like the link you posted, I also read horrible horrible stories of years of sexual abuses from teacher in the name of tantric practice.

If I may, I would like to share something the Dalai Lama said regarding sexual teacher-student relationship.

...........There isn't any aspect of the training towards becoming a lama that is specifically designed to help you avoid abusing your own students, if you ever have students. But the very nature of Buddhist practice is to cultivate compassion, a sense of altruism towards others, and if this is pure, then the teacher will not abuse his influence............

.................Jack Engler: That's a very big "if" one is pure enough. I think people enter into these relationships on the assumption that the teacher has some degree of enlightenment; and then, when the abuse takes place or similar mistakes are made, the disillusionment is quite strong.
Dalai Lama: I normally recommend to Buddhist practitioners not to see every action of their spiritual teacher as divine and noble. In all of the Buddhist teachings, there are specific, very demanding qualities that are required of a spiritual mentor. If one has a teacher who is engaging in unsuitable or wrong behavior, it is appropriate for the students to criticize that behavior..........

full interview here

Maybe a spiritual friends is probably better way to see teacher....definitely something to reconsider and reexamine for me.

Gassho Jundo and thank you for sharing your view.
Victor