Universalism

[Jun]

and are we reborn as ketchup.

Tomato sauce!

[Hans]

But I tend to look on society, and religious society, as a salad. I am a tomato, and there are peppers and greens and bit of this and that ... and we should all co-exist, learn from each other and get along.

Hello Folks!

When it comes to internal beliefs, I couldn't agree more, but it is my experience that religions whose job it is to actively proselytize aren't just satisfied with believing their stuff and sharing it. There comes a point when religious views actively shape day to day politics and openly attempt to change other people's lives (including my own). I can see it happening in my own country as we speak, and trust me, I am not a fan of conspiracy-theories. Ideas and actions that would usually be met with great public resistance suddenly become OK(or ar at least not open to a truly critical discourse), just because the pc-label "religion" is attached to them.

In this sense I very much side with Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris etc. who point out time and time again, that BS ideas (or any kind idea for that matter) should not be excluded from critical analysis, just because somebody says "it's part of my religion, you have to respect that".

Voltaire didn't have a very important impact on the Enlightenment because he tried to get along with everyone nicely.

Gassho,

Hans

[Don Niederfrank]

Universalism, etc.

Fwiw,
I think there is a difference between Universalism and Subjectivism, between “We all get home.” And “What’s right for you is right for you and what’s right for me is right for me.” And Zen Buddhism which says, “There is neither ‘home’ nor ‘right’.”

I judge paths by compassion and I think there are some paths that are harmful, that increase attachment to material possessions, that increase fear, that decrease acceptance, peace, joy. And though it is parallel to the Fundamentalist who out of love points out a neighbor’s sin to save him from hell’s damnation, I think it is compassionate to tell another pilgrim that their choices appear to have harmful consequences for themselves and/or others.

But, of course, it is done with the severest self-examination and humility possible.

[Keishin]

universalism

Hello Keith and all here--

Don, thank you for such a succinctly put touchstone:

'I judge paths by compassion.'

If you want to know someone's true beliefs--observe what they DO.
It is through the practical applicaion in daily life in daily activities that beliefs are revealed for what they are!

Even my own have surprised me on occasion!

keishin

[Don Niederfrank]

Re: universalism

Hello Keith and all here--

Don, thank you for such a succinctly put touchstone:

'I judge paths by compassion.'

If you want to know someone's true beliefs--observe what they DO.
It is through the practical applicaion in daily life in daily activities that beliefs are revealed for what they are!

Even my own have surprised me on occasion!

keishin

Exactly. Someone once told me that if y :lol: ou want to know a person's values, look at their checkbook register.

[Jundo]

Re: universalism

If you want to know someone's true beliefs--observe what they DO.
It is through the practical applicaion in daily life in daily activities that beliefs are revealed for what they are!

You sure spoke a truth, sister! Thank you, Keishin.

For example, my relationship with Nishijima Roshi was not built first and foremost on what he writes in some essay about Zen and Zazen. It is watching how the man moves through life, treats people, handles difficulties, smiles and all the rest, since I first met him around 1989 (and especially since I became much closer to him about 10 years ago). His teachings, especially in English (he is rather more expressive in Japanese of course) and in his later years tend to be focused on a few things. They are brilliant, original and insightful expressions of Zen and Buddhist teachings and of experiences that are often beyond expression or explanation with words. But I knew I had found a true teacher when I watched him sit Zazen like a stone, how he bows with grace, when I visited him when he was sick in hospital, at the time of the death of his wife, how he hustles from train to train in good weather or bad on one of his travels, how he takes care in his translation work when we worked together on a book, how he ages (he will be 89 soon), how he was simply very generous and kind to even difficult people, how he always has time for teaching, etc. etc.

None of us is perfect, including Nishijima of course. We are all human beings, with respective good and weak points (except for me! ha ha). But a true teacher, I think, will be shown in a person who is a truly alive, humane and 'human' human being. May I live as long as Nishijima and be half of that!

Gassho, Jundo

[Dainin]

Hey Everyone,

Wow, Jundo, thank you for that beautiful description of Nishijima Roshi. It was very touching to me. What a wonderful description of a true teacher (and more importantly a true human being). I am even more proud and grateful for being, in his words, his "granddaughter."

"By their fruits you shall know them." May we all sow helpful and healthful fruit.

Gratefully,
Keith

[Stephanie]

I am also sympathetic to Universalism philosophically, though in practice, UU seems to me to... not have much of a practice to it! I really don't see the point of going to a UU service, except perhaps to meet other like-minded folks.

My main objection to the popular American notion of Christianity (believe in Jesus, repent, be saved, go to heaven) is not a metaphysical one, but a moral one. How could an omnibenevolent God send anybody to hell for eternity? I personally find the notion extreme even for such a person as Hitler, much less for the many varieties of people that Christians say will go to hell. I don't want to send anyone to hell, I don't want to see anyone in hell, and knowing that there are people in hell, I want to help get them out. I think this is a pretty universal human reaction, though certainly many of us numb ourselves to the suffering we see around us. I am constantly surprised how often I can walk by a homeless person begging on the street without a twinge of any feeling whatsoever. Of course, if I slow down and really pay attention, I feel it--the sadness, the guilt, the yearning to reach out, give a dollar, do something.

And to me, it's metaphysically possible that there's some God in charge of our Fates (I mean, Hell, what do I know about the true nature of the cosmos? Could be invisible gremlins everywhere for all I know) who is a jealous, angry God, but my attitude is that I could never worship such a God. Knowing that tells me a lot about what it means to be human--that our primary orientation is to one another. So how could humans live in Paradise knowing others were suffering, and not want to help them? I would be eternally depressed knowing that there were people suffering the worst torments forever. The deepest joy possible for a human being is to help others. I think Jesus (whether he was a real person or a historical abstraction) knew that, and I think more enlightened Christians over the years--Tolstoy, the Quakers, the Universalists, etc.--recognized that as well.