"Zen Students Today"-Thoughts from a teacher

[Jishin]

Emotionally charged, passively charged teaching or a combination thereof produces different results.

1) Emotional teacher and passive student: Student is scared into awakening.

2) Emotional teacher and passive student: Student is so scared that he only remembers that teacher is scary, nothing else.

3) Passive teacher and emotional student: Student calms down and becomes more apt to pay attention and learn.

4) Passive teacher and emotional student: Teacher is unable to reign in student’s emotions hindering students learning.

5) Passive teacher and passive student: ………….? (and on and on)

One shoe size does not fit all. I like the approach that Jundo and Taigu use here. I personally need different teaching styles at different stages of learning. When I first came to Treeleaf, my ego was very disturbed by the fact it did not know what it thought it did. It felt threatened, feared disintegration and assumed a highly defensive posture, which in my case is not conducive to learning. Gentle whacking (in my perception) helped to crack open my denial defenses just enough so that I become more teachable and so the Soto style began to sink in. I could have walked away from Zen altogether and just stuck to mindfulness psychology if skillful means had not been used. Rinzai and I would probably not mix well.

Gassho, John

[RichardH]

Getting passed the self impressed air of the writing, ....is it true that students are less real now? We suffer just as much as always, we are just as stuck in our heads and lives, only the times and culture have changed. It is up to the teacher to have the skillful means isn't it? If a teacher can step out of his/her traditional repertoire there can be connections in surprising ways. If a teacher sits there like a living museum of Zen antics, fewer students are going to connect. I spent several years with a very traditional Korean teacher, who carried a staff, and who spoke and acted like any kid would imagine a Zen master should be, including shrieking and humiliating me, and being inscrutable. That time is appreciated because I learned to sit still, but I failed to connect with him, as he sat there with his staff. The article reads like teacher who has a particular style, expects the world to meet it, and then is disappointed when it doesn't.



Gassho Daizan

[Geika]

Thank you for that perspective, Ben.

[ZenHarmony]

It is up to the teacher to have the skillful means isn't it? If a teacher can step out of his/her traditional repertoire there can be connections in surprising ways. If a teacher sits there like a living museum of Zen antics, fewer students are going to connect.

I agree, Daizan. That article just makes me feel Hopeless and helpless to change it. What do I need, a smack or a talk? Nature knows, I've been shot down enough that I'm afraid to even venture an opinion on much, not that I know anything to be able to contribute anyway. But, how is it bad to "seek" peace if HOW you're doing it is to learn to drop everything and accept Reality as-it-is?

*sigh*

Gassho,

Lisa

[Seiryu]

I feel that Hyon Gak's article is more of a reaction towards the KUSZ in general than an 'attack' on Zen students across the board.

As someone who was practice with the KUZS (a center was only a ten minute bus ride from where I am currently staying) I can understand where Hyon Gak is coming from.
It is almost laughable how many koans I have "passed" within the KUZS system. And none of the answers were true in the sense that they came from insight or whatever....I was just answering in the way I was expected to answer and praised for it. And the was an air of being in a 'Zen Club' feeling to it more than anything else.

Although I feel Hyon Gak is being a little, as Daizan was pointing at, wanting things to be a certain way for it to be classified as 'true zen' I also feel that some of the points he brings up are valid and in some places an issue...

but maybe it would be better for me to just shut up and sit.

[RichardH]

I agree, Daizan. That article just makes me feel Hopeless and helpless to change it. What do I need, a smack or a talk? Nature knows, I've been shot down enough that I'm afraid to even venture an opinion on much, not that I know anything to be able to contribute anyway. But, how is it bad to "seek" peace if HOW you're doing it is to learn to drop everything and accept Reality as-it-is?

*sigh*

Gassho,

Lisa

Hi Lisa. I think it is up to teachers to develop the skillful means, but that does not mean every teacher must find a way to teach every student. Sometimes it is just the wrong match. That Korean teacher was a good teacher, but I was also proud and stubborn, still am... always will be, so he was also maybe exasperated. Personally I think there is a teacher, a style of teaching, for everybody in the big wide stream of Buddhadharma.


Gassho Daizan

[ZenHarmony]

Oh, I hope so, Daizan, that would be nice.

Gassho,

Lisa

[Jinyo]

I agree, Daizan. That article just makes me feel Hopeless and helpless to change it. What do I need, a smack or a talk? Nature knows, I've been shot down enough that I'm afraid to even venture an opinion on much, not that I know anything to be able to contribute anyway. But, how is it bad to "seek" peace if HOW you're doing it is to learn to drop everything and accept Reality as-it-is?

*sigh*

Gassho,

Lisa

Lisa I have you firmly fixed in my mind as someone here who I learn from.

I hope you can overcome your fear of being shot down. I have this fear too ( I know this isn't evident from the number of posts I make!) but I've learnt a valuable lesson in the process of how much I project this fear onto others.

Every time I post I feel nervous, but I keep at it because I want to learn and understand. Sitting is no doubt more valuable than words - but an exchange of words is part of the teaching process here.

Your words matter just as much an anybody elses.

I don't much like the article because it feels so disrespectful towards the students - but I found Seiryu's post enlightening - putting the article in a clearer context.

And now I feel nervous posting this

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

Your words matter just as much an anybody elses.

...

And now I feel nervous posting this

You are both valued and cherished here.

Gassho, J

[Yugen]

I second (and third, and fourth) that.

Deep bows
Yugen

You are both valued and cherished here.

Gassho, J