Bankei

[Jinyo]

In Tibetan lojong teachings there is the instruction 'Examine the nature of unborn awareness'. I have always found this to be a powerful phrase, as unborn suggests that awareness is not just something limited to now but has always been.

As Richard says above, it points to the fact there is not nothing and yet...

Gassho
Andy

Thank you for the clarification Andy.

Gassho

Willow

[Hans]

Hello,

there is no-thing there. But qualities display themselves nevertheless


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[RichardH]

Hello,

there is no-thing there. But qualities display themselves nevertheless


Gassho, Daizan

Hans Chudo Mongen

Not a display arising-from a no-thing, or qualities of a no-thing. Just qualities..."like a dew drop, a flash of lightening". Clouds rolling, static building, lightening flashing. Maybe it is needless to say , but we see water pour from a spout, and eggs come from chickens... it is only natural to imagine an ultimate chicken called "no-thing" or the unborn ...or..


Gassho, Daizan

[Kokuu]

Not addressing this to any of the posters above but a quote I like on this subject:

To cling to a concrete reality is to be as foolish as cattle.
But clinging to emptiness is even more foolish.
- Saraha


Gassho
Andy

[MyoHo]

Chickens and eggs m8? Really? I'd go for a refund if I were you

Gassho

E.

[Jundo]

eggs come from chickens... it is only natural to imagine an ultimate chicken called "no-thing" or the unborn ...or..

Looking at the condition of this world sometimes, I can imagine that it is just something that happened to drop out of some Cosmic Chicken's ass.

[Hans]

Hello Andy,

Saraha is DA MAN!

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Kokuu]

He is indeed, Hans! I love those Mahasiddhas.

One story I love about Saraha is when he asked his consort to prepare him a radish curry while he meditates but he loses track of time and sits for twelve years. When he eventually stops he yells for his dinner His dakini consort replies, 'You sit in samadhi for twelve years and the first thing you ask is where your curry is?'!

Gassho
Andy

[Hans]

Hello Andy,

although this is off-topic, I can be quite irritable as well if I haven't eaten properly for a while. The man just really liked his food

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jinyo]

[QUOTE=Karasu;113489]He is indeed, Hans! I love those Mahasiddhas.

One story I love about Saraha is when he asked his consort to prepare him a radish curry while he meditates but he loses track of time and sits for twelve years. When he eventually stops he yells for his dinner His dakini consort replies, 'You sit in samadhi for twelve years and the first thing you ask is where your curry is?'!

Just looked up Saraha - thanks for the mention Andy - going to read some more.

Gassho

Willow

[RichardH]

Looking at the condition of this world sometimes, I can imagine that it is just something that happened to drop out of some Cosmic Chicken's ass.

It does have a vaguely chicken's ass smell this morning.

Sometimes I look at what I posted the day before and think.."what are you going on about?"

Gassho Daizan

[Kokuu]

Hi all

To add to the discussion on the use of 'unborn' in Buddhism, I have just begun reading a book on teachings on nibbana/nirvana in the Pali canon (The Island by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro). Early on in the book it lists all of the words and phrases that the Buddha uses for nibbana and one of those is ajāta, 'the unborn'.

Gassho
Andy

[RichardH]

Hi all

To add to the discussion on the use of 'unborn' in Buddhism, I have just begun reading a book on teachings on nibbana/nirvana in the Pali canon (The Island by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro). Early on in the book it lists all of the words and phrases that the Buddha uses for nibbana and one of those is ajāta, 'the unborn'.

Gassho

Andy

This was a basic teaching in the Forest Sangha tradition.. "there is the unborn, uncompounded, unconditioned." When I was transitioning to Zen it helped to switched out the words of Heart Sutra to reflect a different understanding of "unborn" .

Unborn is not other than born
born is not other than unborn
born is unborn
unborn is born


unconditioned is not other than conditioned
conditioned is not other than unconditioned
conditioned is unconditioned
unconditioned is conditioned

A silly exercise maybe, but it took The Unborn out of the realm of a transcendent goal, and back to a reminder of these bones now, and life as-is.

Gassho Daizan

[Jundo]

Hi all

To add to the discussion on the use of 'unborn' in Buddhism, I have just begun reading a book on teachings on nibbana/nirvana in the Pali canon (The Island by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro). Early on in the book it lists all of the words and phrases that the Buddha uses for nibbana and one of those is ajāta, 'the unborn'.

Gassho
Andy

I don't mean to muddle in philosophy, but there is some discussion in Zen and Buddhism that terms like "the unborn" can be misleading, that maybe the famous short sutta which says "there is the unborn, uncompounded, unconditioned" is unusual or is easily misunderstood, and the Buddha actually did not speak in such way often. Why? Well, concepts like "the unborn" and such can give the impression of some reified (nice word) "thing", perhaps a great Spirit, Atman, Brahma, Great Godhead, Deity, Cosmic Source or the like that we are trying to "merge with" (or trying to realize that we are in disguise).

The Buddha, it is said, did not teach such and rejected Atman. Or, perhaps, his Teaching was just unconcerned about whether there is some Great Godhead Etc. or not.

Atman, the Sanskrit expression of Soul, Self, or Ego, is a permanent, everlasting and absolute entity, which is the unchanging substance behind the changing phenomenal world.
...Buddhism denies the existence of such a thought. (Walpola Rahula)

So, if so, what DID the Buddha teach?

Perhaps we might say that "unborn" means, not some "Great Universal Unborn" ... but the world encountered when we stop thinking about things being born, living and dying, coming and going. In other words, it is not some Thing, but more the inner state when we stop measuring and judging the world as this and that, good things and bad, starts and finishes, me and not me etc.

Same with other Buddhist words, such as "Big 'M' Mind" ... which is perhaps not a Cosmic Consciousness or the like, but more the mind when we stop thinking about what happens behind the eyes and in front of the eyes as separate.

Same with "Emptiness" or "the Void" ... which is not a thing or the absence of a thing, but a great moving dancing that cannot be stuffed into a box.

Why is this important? Well, perhaps the Buddha's teaching have more to do with our giving up our psychological process of categorizing, judging, dividing up and feeling separate from the world, and less to do with some "merging with the Cosmic Spirit" or the like, which is what Buddha was critical of in Brahmanism.

Anyway ... enough philosophy.

Gassho, J

[Myosha]

Thank you.


Gassho,
Edward