Shikantaza Question

[Jundo]

Hi guys,

Jundo , quick question about what you are teaching us above ( and at any time) about "thinking not-thinking". After a few years of practice there seems to be two ways to go about this quieting the mind, a bit like flipping a switch. One choice is like closing the door or "make a thought blocking bubble" and the mind just goes blank. The other choice is to let thoughts come by like floating garbage in a river. Things comes into view and then pass by, all good because I don't have to do anything with it. Watch it go but don't grab it. As I understand now, this is Shikantaza.

What I'm curious about is your take on this blocking thing. I that case all goes quiet too but it takes force, energy. It is an active process of "wrestling down" the thinking mind. Can it be said that a good way to define if we are at least in the ball park of correct shikantaza practice, is that it should be an effortless and gentle practice? Or does the other method also have value in our practice too?

Gassho

Enkyo

Sorry, Enkyo. We do not make a "thought blocking bubble", and the mind does not go "blank". (I mean, it may sometimes go "blank", but not usually or as our goal). There is no resistance, and we just let thoughts settle ... like stirred up, turbid water in a jar ... by putting the jar down.

Nor do we see "floating garbage" go by. "Garbage" is a value judgment, very negative. Some of what floats by may be harmful garbage, some pretty rose pedals. All kinds of thoughts float by.

I would say, thoughts just float by ... and also, there are long stretches of clear water where nothing floats by.

But here is what "think not thinking = non-thinking" is. It comes from an old Koan which Dogen often quoted [Nishijima-Cross Translation]:

While Great Master Yakusan Kōdō is sitting, a monk asks him, “What
are you thinking in the still-still state?” The master says, “Thinking the concrete
state of not thinking.” The monk says, “How can the state of not thinking
be thought?” The master says, “It is non-thinking.”

Thinking ... Not Thinking (不思量 fushuryo in Japanenese) ... Non Thinking (非思量 hishiryo) ... What is the difference, this "not" and "non" ...

First there is thinking, our head filled with thoughts. Some thoughts may be lovely (like flowers floating by), some neutral, some horrid (garbage floating by). That is the ordinary experience of people, morning until night, head filled with thoughts.

Next, we experience what Dogen described in Fukanzazengi and elsewhere, when we are free of all that thinking ... free of aversions and attractions, thoughts of good vs. bad, today tomorrow and yesterday, our fears, me vs. you, the self vs. everything not the self ... and one finds Clear Boundless Illumination, the Interpenetrating Flowing Wholeness of Emptiness (which is anything but empty!).

Yet that's not all, for on the Zafu ... and hopefully through all of life ... we come to experience "thinking not thinking" also called "non thinking". Simply said, the Clear Boundless Illumination shines through the thoughts, in the thoughts, between the thoughts, AS the thoughts. Thoughts and being free of thoughts are "not two", i.e., even thoughts are free of thoughts. In a world of "good vs. bad, today tomorrow and yesterday" we simultaneously find that which is Timeless as Time, a Good which holds all small human judgments of good vs. bad. There is a Peace and Wholeness which hold all of life's broken pieces. In a world which has me and you and the other guy there is SIMULTANEOUSLY the Interpenetrating Flowing Wholeness through, in and AS all of us.

One finds that the flowing river, the items flowing in the river and the very flowing are One beyond One ... Flowing Flowing Flowing.

Perhaps I can say that life's garbage AND lovely flower pedals that come floating along are, each and all, seen as simultaneously Buddha Lotus Pedals.

Does that help?

Gassho, J

[MyoHo]

Oh yes! Thank you! It was more a curious technical question about something I noticed really . "No bubbles in my Zendo" I knew you'd say that! ( There are times however that the mind did go blank because the timer goes off and 30 minutes time just vanished and this is only noticed afterwards, but that is besides the point here.)

You are quite right, "garbage" is a poor choice of words. Apologies. Not all of it is garbage, oh dear, far from it but even the flower has to be allowed to pass by. I meant debris though, stuff that floats in a river in general. Flowers, wood, a box of jewels or a whole house, no matter. It comes into view and we let it go by again, without stopping on it. I like the picture because after a storm there is a lot in the river and at other times not so much. Then there is just the river (rare in my humble case).

Good point though. A value judgement while observing stuff going by is made all too quickly. I will look into this.

Thank you Jundo

Gassho

E.

[Jundo]

Oh yes! Thank you! It was more a curious technical question about something I noticed really . "No bubbles in my Zendo" I knew you'd say that! ( There are times however that the mind did go blank because the timer goes off and 30 minutes time just vanished and this is only noticed afterwards, but that is besides the point here.)

Yes, this has happened many many no time-times!

So have those sittings where time seemed to be creeping so slowly to me, that 30 minutes seemed like hours.

Gassho, J

[pinoybuddhist]

Thank you for your answer Jundo. And don't worry, we're ok - the earthquake hit somewhere else although some people also felt it here. I didn't even know there had been an earthquake until I checked Facebook.


Rafael

A couple of very interesting questions!



Sam, where exactly do those quotes come from, because they seem not in harmony with what I quote Brad as saying below in the next post.

Anyway, our Teacher, Nishijima Roshi, was of the opinion that sitting in the Lotus Position by itself, straightening the spine, works a physiological effect that balances the mind and carries through one's day and life ... which he calls "balance of the autonomic nervous system." I too, as do about all Zen folks anywhere, believe fully that a balanced and stable posture does aid in allowing a balanced and stable mind ... as body-mind is intimately connected and whole. However, I believe that Nishijima Roshi's theories on the marvelous effects of sitting in Lotus Posture itself and straightening the spine go a bit too far sometimes. I have written a bit more about that here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9399-the-truth-about-posture-%28-there-is-no-posture%29&p=70852&viewfull=1#post70852

I think Brad may be more a posture fellow than me, like Nishijima.

But I believe that if one goes through Dogen's writings, one will find some references to maintaining a balanced posture, but also the mental aspect hand in hand. Neither is to be neglected, and in fact, the physical aspect of sitting may just be a means to support or nurture the mental aspect. Here is a quick sample from Dogen's Fukanzazengi, and I have boldfaced what I consider advice on mental attitudes such as not judging "good and bad, true or false", dropping goals of becoming enlightened, dropping measures and views, etc. ...



Nishijima Roshi (as does Brad) emphasizes that "non-thinking" and "non-judging" aspect as much as I do, but might have a little more faith than I do in the ability of proper posture alone to bring that about.

This leads to Rafael's question (by the way, Raf, I hope all are well in your family from today's earthquake) ...



Generally, we do not ponder any intellectual question in Shikantaza, nor do we focus on a Koan in the manner of Koan centered Zazen such as "Who Am I" or the like. I believe that Nishijima Roshi recommended returning to posture for the reasons I describe above, but also because it is not an intellectual exercise. This is the same reason that other Soto Teachers will generally advise to return to following the breath, or return to "open awareness" (as I do here). All of us agree that in Shikantaza, we open the hand of thought, and let thoughts go without grabbing on (Brad always says that too when I have read is descriptions of Zazen). We do not think about a question.

I have written more about the various locations (and non-locations) to "place the mind" during Zazen, and my reasons for favoring "open spacious awareness".



Gassho, J

[pinoybuddhist]

In my case, sometimes a minute seems like forever - and I only usually sit 15, 20 at the most. I remember the first time I sat Zazenkai - ARRRRGH!

Yes, this has happened many many no time-times!

So have those sitting where time seemed to be creeping so slowly to me, that 30 minutes seemed like hours.

Gassho, J

[Myosha]

Grateful to all.


Gassho,
Edward

[Khalil Bodhi]

Thank you Rev. Jundo and all who have taken the time to discuss this. I think I just needed a course correction.

[MyoHo]

OHHHHHHH , those endless 30 minutes sessions of wrestling with the self. Usually the best ones , lol

Gassho

E.

[Tiwala]

Sounds like a huatou. Chinese Chan makes use of them to cultivate a doubting mind, or questioning, curious mind. I think other ways people have said it is Seung Sahn's don't know mind, Shunryu Suzuki's beginner's mind etc. The goal, in contrast to Zen koans, is not to answer it. Any effort to intellectualize it is actually wrong, although in my experience, my intellect chewed at it relentlessly and mercilessly until my its fangs shattered, causing a massive spilling of blood which rendered it unconscious for awhile.

I dunno if Jundo agrees, but I use it for supplementary practice with shikantaza. However, when sitting, I don't bring it up. I just sit.

Gassho,
Ben

[sittingzen]

Hi KB,

You asked a question and certainly received responses!

I don't have much to add, although I feel that when we assume the posture, and just sit, and just be, the question that you are asking will naturally reveal itself. Other practices such as self-enquiry use the question, "Who am I?" But even then, it's not so much a direct question to actually be asked, but an inner-awareness that traces the source point from where thoughts arise. But this is not zazen.

When I sit, and my thoughts begin to subside. There are moments of quiet gaps between the thoughts. Much like......../\.............../\...................../\............

Those quiet moments reveal to me our inner true nature. That which is without judgement, opinions, or ego.

,

Lu

[Jundo]

Sounds like a huatou. Chinese Chan makes use of them to cultivate a doubting mind, or questioning, curious mind. I think other ways people have said it is Seung Sahn's don't know mind, Shunryu Suzuki's beginner's mind etc. The goal, in contrast to Zen koans, is not to answer it. Any effort to intellectualize it is actually wrong, although in my experience, my intellect chewed at it relentlessly and mercilessly until my its fangs shattered, causing a massive spilling of blood which rendered it unconscious for awhile.

I dunno if Jundo agrees, but I use it for supplementary practice with shikantaza. However, when sitting, I don't bring it up. I just sit.

Gassho,
Ben

Hi Ben,

I am sure that Suzuki Roshi's "Beginner's Mind" was not meant as a Koan or a phrase or idea to contemplate during Zazen. Suzuki was as Shikantaza as Shikantaza can be, "Mr. Just Sitting".

Now, what one does off the cushion ... on one's own time ... is up to you. You can hold a Hua-tou, pray to Jesus or Amida Buddha, read science books, watch Seinfeld reruns, do the laundry ... or any combination thereof or something else. All "Shikantaza" too when practices as a Whole and Sacred Act.

All Buddha Buddhaing Buddha.

Gassho, J

[shikantazen]

I sent a message to Brad on facebook and this is his response:

hi brad, one question on just sitting. During the sitting which of the following is true? a) Let the mind do whatever it needs to do. Ofcourse don't intentionally try to think something but otherwise dont try to control the mind in anyway b) whenever you realize you are caught up bring the mind back; in other words keep waking up from thought
which of a) or b) do you recommend during sitting

8 hours ago

Both.

2 hours ago

Thanks Brad. to be more specific, i am sitting in a). i.e., leaving thoughts as is without trying to wake up; but again without any intentional thinking. I don't specifically try to wake up from thoughts or try to bring the mind back. I somehow feel trying wake up from thoughts sets up a goal oriented attitude to my sitting. just sitting and leaving the mind seems more natural and shikantaza like to me. Please let me know if what I am doing sounds correct. Thanks very much for your time

41 minutes ago

It sounds correct. The thing is there's no way around having a bit of intention in your practice, even though the practice itself is ideally without intention.

[Myoku]

...When one notices that one is lost in thought, let it go ... return to Just Sitting. Repeat and repeat as needed.

Thank you. Nothing else seems needed to me, no opinions on or insights in mind, nothing else.
Gassho
Myoku

[Jishin]

Hi Sam,

I find that good Zen teachers are worthless. In the end I just ignore them and sit. :-)

Gassho, John

[Daitetsu]

IMHO one of the best descriptions of Shikantaza can be found in the book "Opening the Hand of Thought". It includes a nice diagram as well.
However, I think the introductory Treeleaf Beginner's Series videos contain everything one needs to know.

Gassho,

Timo