Cave of Ghosts

[shikantazen]

dogen never posted using tapatalk, otherwise am sure he too would have said it in much fewer words

Tony,

For me the seeking and having goals kind of subsided once I started practicing the correct form of shikantaza. True shikantaza is just sitting and allowing your experience to be as it is. It is sitting with a knowing that whatever happens in your sitting is okay. You don't make any effort to change what is happening. Sometimes you are aware some other times you are lost in thoughts but all of that is okay. So essentially there is no method/technique. Even "allowing your experience to be as it is" is not a goal/method we are trying to stick to. If you find that you are allowing your experience to be as it is then you don't try to set it right either. As someone earlier suggested on the forums the most effective way to do shikantaza is by not trying to be effective at it. You simply sit on the cushion and get up after 30 mins; whatever happens is okay.

Sheng Yen's silent illumination is definitely not this. The focus on "body sitting there" and trying to bring the mind back to that constantly might set up a goal oriented attitude in my view.

Gassho,
Sam

[Jundo]

You don't make any effort to change what is happening. Sometimes you are aware some other times you are lost in thoughts but all of that is okay. ... You simply sit on the cushion and get up after 30 mins; whatever happens is okay.

Hi Sam,

What you say is all lovely and a good description, but the above statements are rather misleading I am afraid. We -do not- just sit there and let what happens happen, then get up when the bell rings. This is a very subtle point. We do not sit there, for example, just stewing stewing stewing and are "okay" with it, maybe even keeping on with the stirring　ｏｆ　ｔｈｅ　ｓｔｅｗ.

Rather, by sitting dropping all need to change, all resistance to how things are, all feeling that something is wrong ... things change, resistance becomes peace, and wrongs are righted!

Crazy, huh？　


Let me offer one quick, simple example:

Someone is sitting there really angry, stewing about the boss　ａｔ　ｗｏｒｋ, feeling that their Zazen sitting (and all of life) is going wrong because they are stewing!

So, instead, they sit with an attitude that "nothing needs change, all things are as they are, sitting is complete (and so is all of life) even with its difficulties and pains, ｔｈａｔ　even presently feｌｔ "angry thoughts" is just a passing mood and "okay".

Well, that very acceptance, allowing, dropping of resistance to "things as they are" etc. IS THE BEST MEDICINE FOR ANGER, BECAUSE IT IS SO HARD TO BE ANGRY WHEN ACCEPTING AND ALLOWING LIFE! HARD TO BE 'PISSED' WHEN FEELING THAT ALL IS "JUST AS IT IS, WHOLE AND COMPLETE". Chances are the anger will cool, all to be replaced by increasing feelings of Wholeness, Peace, Harmony etc. even about those difficulties and pains．　Ｔｈｉｓ　ｉｓ　ｔｈｅ　ｌｉｔｔｌｅ　ｓｅｌｆ’ｓ　”Ｉ　ｗａｎｔ，　Ｉ　ｎｅｅｄ，　Ｉ　ｄｏｎ’ｔ　ｌｉｋｅ”　ｂｅｉｎｇ　ｐｕｔ　ｏｕｔ　ｏｆ　ａ　ｊｏｂ．

Funny how that works, huh? Ｂｕｔ　ｖｉｔａｌ　ｔｏ　Ｓｈｉｋａｎｔａｚａ　ｔｏ　ｕｎｄｅｒｓｔａｎｄ　ｔｈｅ　ｄｉｆｆｅｒｅｎ ｃｅ　ｂｅｔｗｅｅｎ　”Ｊｕｓｔ　Ｓｉｔｔｉｎｇ，　Ｊｕｓｔ　Ｌｅｔｔｉｎｇ　Ｂｅ”　ａｎｄ　”ｊｕ ｓｔ　ｓｉｔｔｉｎｇ　ｔｈｅｒｅ　ｌｅｔｔｉｎｇ　ｓｔｕｆｆ　ｈａｐｐｅｎ”．　So, please don't ｂｅ　thinking that "just sitting" is "just sitting there, thumb twiddling".

Gassho, J

[MyoHo]

Birds flapping about
in my sometimes quiet pond.
The should be there
otherwise I´d be dead.
It`s OK though
they will fly away soon.

Gassho

E.

[dharmasponge]

Thianks Sam and Jundo and everyone else's input to date.

It's so hard to see past the fact that to take a step towards the Zafu means we/I am doing it for a reason, I hope for something, an outcome, an alleviation of my suffering maybe? Otherwise why not do something else instead, like wash the car or feed the cat? If everything was ok just as it is, why sit at all?

My other experience of Zazen as I have mentioned is through the Chan tradition which does at the start explain the rationale for sitting and what might be experienced. Ultimately these conceptions will be burnt up like the two sticks that light a fire (though I have never been able to start a fire with two sticks haha).

My (probably incorrect) understanding so far is that when we sit in Shikantaza we have no agenda, no expectations, no rationale for sitting either.

A question if I may; why can we not discuss the modus operandi of Zazen, rather than dance around it - I mean that in the nicest possible way ;-)) If just sitting reveals to the mind it's own capacity for to remain unaffected by our vexations why can we not have that as a goal or agenda? It wouldn't have to affect the actual practice as such but would help newbies like me understand why I am sitting.

_/|\_








Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free

[alan.r]

A question if I may; why can we not discuss the modus operandi of Zazen, rather than dance around it - I mean that in the nicest possible way ;-)) If just sitting reveals to the mind it's own capacity for to remain unaffected by our vexations why can we not have that as a goal or agenda? It wouldn't have to affect the actual practice as such but would help newbies like me understand why I am sitting.

_/|\_

[/URL]

Hi Tony. Really good question. We don't do it (sit with the goal you describe) because if we don't "reach" that goal we create problems. oh crap, I'm not zazening well - I need to be clearer, purer, more mindful, more aware. So, it's not that there aren't good days during zazen (and, as Jundo mention, it's not that there's not "good" zazen), but it's also true that there are bad days of zazen, and by dropping notions of good and bad, we learn to accept things as they are. Messy mind today is messy mind today - for a beginner, if this keeps happening, I'm sure Jundo can give some advice; for a person who has practiced for a while, it just means it's messy mind today and that's okay, and in the deep experience of it being okay, maybe there is a moment of just sitting in front of the wall and messy mind is gone; maybe not, too, but the point is that we can't have perfect blue sky blue mind every day, and making meditation about "getting" that mind is making it like all the other crap in our life - a thing to chase. So we drop goals and allow.

I was about to write an analogy about soccer/futbol, but feel I've already said too much.

Gassho

[Tiwala]

Hi Tony,

I'm also relatively new. I come from influences from the huatou traditions of Chan and Son, so just sitting is new to me as well, ocasssionally perplexing an idea. I come from a very rinzai perspective, and having gone through military training as well, I'm generally more inclined to blasting the ego to bits with fireworks. Why am I here? Well, why not? At any rate, your concerns and questions are not too far away from mine.

In my readings, if I understand them correcly at least, all things are indeed buddha nature. So why must we sit? Why not some other thing like washing yourself, doing homework, going on a hike, pissing on a roadside, watching stray dogs mate etc? Dogen was posed this question and answered, because we come to this realization through zazen. Just reading about it won't make you realize. Zen is uncompromising in that sense. So actually, sitting does have a goal. But when we sit, we reach this goal, ironically, by dropping the idea.

When people say there is nothing lacking, they really mean it! But this doesn't mean that we become rocks, wasting all our days in a state of seated sleep, as good old Hakuin says. In the end, we intimately come to the realization that all life is practice. Practice done in activity is a billion times better than practice done in inactivity, says Hakuin. Just do it!

[Jundo]

It's so hard to see past the fact that to take a step towards the Zafu means we/I am doing it for a reason, I hope for something, an outcome, an alleviation of my suffering maybe? Otherwise why not do something else instead, like wash the car or feed the cat? If everything was ok just as it is, why sit at all?

Oh, we have a goal and purpose which drives us to the Zafu each day: ENLIGHTENMENT! Find WHO WE TRULY ARE! (Not to mention the relatively minor accompaniments to Practice of being more 'at home' with the pesky boss at work, the flat tire on the car, the cancer diagnosis).

It is simply that when one arrives at the cushion and the bell rings, one "finds" all such in Shikantaza by radically dropping the need to "hunt" for it and fix what's missing.

Hopefully, when the bell rings again and one rises from the Zafu, one can return to life's "hunt and fix" while simultaneously free of the "hunt and fix" At Once, As One.

Why? What is the rationale behind "finding by non-searching" this way?

Suppose one were already standing right on Buddha Nature-Mountain, climbing Buddha Nature-Mountain in order to find Buddha Nature-Mountain?

Well, if one believes that Buddha Nature-Mountain is over the next hill or hills, and that one must climb for days (or lifetimes) to find Buddha Nature-Mountain ... one is RIGHT! That is an excellent way to find Buddha Nature-Mountain. It is over there too. Someday, one will finally look down and find that one has been standing on Buddha Nature-Mountain all along. (In fact, it is not so much that one is standing "on" Buddha Nature Mountain, but that one is and timelessly always has been Buddha-Mountain ... Just Buddha-Mountain just Buddha-Mountaineering Buddha-Mountain).

But another way to "find" Buddha Nature Mountain while on (and being) Buddha-Mountain is also to radically Sit and Realize that there was never a "place" to go.

It is kind of a Soto bias perhaps, but we kinda believe that some flavors of Buddhism make Buddha be "far away" because they assume that Buddha is "far away" and that it takes years or lifetimes to "get there". If you think it takes 1000 lifetimes to "become" Buddha ... GUESS WHAT, IT WILL! The Rinzai folks tend to work on their Hua'Tou until they finally crash their "little separate self" into the mountain, into realization just described. That is fine, because all are paths to "Buddha-Mountain".

In Shikantaza, we radically stop the "hunt and fix" and thus FIND-NON-FIND Buddha-Mountain.

On the other hand, Zen is not about being "complacent" with all our greed, anger, ignorance, jealousy, spite and all the rest. We do have work to do in order to free ourselves from all that, to become more "Buddha-like". The choices we make in our actions are in each moment, step by step. So, how to resolve that with the "We are already Buddha" point of view?

By Practice-Enlightenment ... that we are already Buddha, climbing up Buddha ... becoming better Buddha climbers and making progress up the mountain to become more "Buddha-like" ... ALL WHILE, AT THE SAME TIMELESS TIME, we are already Buddha-Mountain just Buddha-Mountaineering Buddha-Mountain in each step-by-step.

A question if I may; why can we not discuss the modus operandi of Zazen, rather than dance around it - I mean that in the nicest possible way ;-))

I think that is all we do around here, not only in this thread, but throughout the Teaching in this Sangha. Perhaps, try as we might, we still have not found good ways to let it be understood.

Gassho, J

[shikantazen]

Thianks Sam and Jundo and everyone else's input to date.

It's so hard to see past the fact that to take a step towards the Zafu means we/I am doing it for a reason, I hope for something, an outcome, an alleviation of my suffering maybe? Otherwise why not do something else instead, like wash the car or feed the cat? If everything was ok just as it is, why sit at all?
..

..

..
A question if I may; why can we not discuss the modus operandi of Zazen, rather than dance around it - I mean that in the nicest possible way ;-)) If just sitting reveals to the mind it's own capacity for to remain unaffected by our vexations why can we not have that as a goal or agenda? It wouldn't have to affect the actual practice as such but would help newbies like me understand why I am sitting.

_/|\_

I think it is okay to have a goal of realization at the back of your mind initially when you start. We need not beat ourselves up trying not to have one. What I found though is that in other practices where they have a technique, this goal or the need for enlightenment/progress becomes stronger as you practice as you are investing something (by doing a technique) in your every day sitting. With shikantaza though, as you sit investing nothing in your sitting, the need for progress slowly subsides.

Gassho,
Sam

[Mp]

By Practice-Enlightenment ... that we are already Buddha, climbing up Buddha ... becoming better Buddha climbers and making progress up the mountain to become more "Buddha-like" ... ALL WHILE, AT THE SAME TIMELESS TIME, we are already Buddha-Mountain just Buddha-Mountaineering Buddha-Mountain in each step-by-step.

This is wonderful Jundo ... thank you for this post.

Gassho
Shingen

[shikantazen]

Hi Sam,

....

Rather, by sitting dropping all need to change, all resistance to how things are, all feeling that something is wrong ... things change, resistance becomes peace, and wrongs are righted!

...
..

So, instead, they sit with an attitude that "nothing needs change, all things are as they are, sitting is complete (and so is all of life) even with its difficulties and pains, ｔｈａｔ　even presently feｌｔ "angry thoughts" is just a passing mood and "okay".

....
Funny how that works, huh? Ｂｕｔ　ｖｉｔａｌ　ｔｏ　Ｓｈｉｋａｎｔａｚａ　ｔｏ　ｕｎｄｅｒｓｔａｎｄ　ｔｈｅ　ｄｉｆｆｅｒｅｎ ｃｅ　ｂｅｔｗｅｅｎ　”Ｊｕｓｔ　Ｓｉｔｔｉｎｇ，　Ｊｕｓｔ　Ｌｅｔｔｉｎｇ　Ｂｅ”　ａｎｄ　”ｊｕ ｓｔ　ｓｉｔｔｉｎｇ　ｔｈｅｒｅ　ｌｅｔｔｉｎｇ　ｓｔｕｆｆ　ｈａｐｐｅｎ”．　So, please don't ｂｅ　thinking that "just sitting" is "just sitting there, thumb twiddling".

Gassho, J

Hi Jundo,

If I understand this correctly are you saying we need to sit with the kind of attitude specified above instead of just sitting? Is that only for times when an emotion is overpowering or for all the sitting in general?

Don't you think "sitting with an(y) attitude" is adding something to your zazen? I understand all of that attitude you describe comes as a by-product of sitting. but do we need to try to sit with that attitude specifically? Don't you think trying to maintain an attitude like that itself will set up a goal-oriented approach to your sitting and adds guilt when you realize you are off that during your sitting?

For me sitting is best described as simple no-manipulative, worry free sitting; whatever happens in sitting is okay. anything else we try to maintain or try to do during sitting only adds to it. even attempts to try to wake up from thought (or coming back to present moment again and again) i found is counterproductive and is not same as just sitting. ofcourse we don't intentionally try to think something in zazen but we don't try to control the mind in anyway otherwise. we might be getting caught up and being aware and again getting caught up; we don't try to change or influence any of that. we just sit and let whatever happens happen, don't try to take care of anything and the sitting takes care of itself. now if someone is worrying that they are having a bad sitting due to lot of anger or other emotions then the suggestion that "whatever happens in sitting is okay" should address that. doesn't it? instead if they try to maintain a specific attitude (if that's what you are suggesting) doesn't tht take them away from the simple pure no-manipulative sitting? May be we are saying the same thing. Please feel free to correct me if not.

Gassho,
Sam

[sittingzen]

Hi Sam,

I think I know what you may be getting at. With regards to Jundo's comment, my interpretation is that the when we sit, it is certainly not complacent sitting. For example, there is nothing wrong about thoughts that pass through during zazen, however, clinging onto those thoughts and creating a narrative out of them is not the practice or the actualization of zazen. Witnessing and engaging thoughts are two very different things.

Zazen is about direct experience. In Jundo's comment he used an example of an office worker stewing and thinking that his practice must not be working because he is very upset. So during practice, he decides to sit and drop the construct of how things -should- be and accepts things for how they are. Instead of getting lost in the powerful emotions of anger, he sees it for what is is-an emotion. A small stone, for example, is more "real" than that emotion of anger. Is it ok to be angry? Of course, but we don't have to allow ourselves to get swept up by it. We see it for what it is, a sensation, and we drop it (or we try to!). To be able to do this, we are alert and not haphazardly "just sitting", even though...we are..just sitting

Gassho,

Lu

[Jinyo]

Lu thank you.

Though I agree with the drift of what you say I see things a little differently. I will probably need correction on this.

I would say that the mind is always manipulative (this is not necessarily meant as derogatory). Even as we try to drop a construct of how a thing should be we are replacing one assumption with another. To sit with no mind - 'body and mind dropped off' - is to experience 'emptiness'.

Emptiness is full of everything - we do not need to fight, worry about our emotions. There is room for anger, room for pain and also room for peace. All at once.

In the midst of this - and maybe it takes many sittings - clarity emerges. Clarity isn't an emotion and is hard to describe in words. It's a way of being that helps to ground us. From it we hope to engage in right speech, right intentions, right actions etc.

If there is to be a goal in Zazen I see it as clarity. Hard to express in words but we know when we touch it - and when we do it's not a thing of the moment - it's like a clear pathway through all the mind's manipulation. We are always on this pathway - just don't realise it a lot of the time.

Gassho

Willow

[sittingzen]

Cave of Ghosts

Hi Willow,

I don't see a contradiction with what you wrote.
Even if the mind is spinning, we do not have to spin with it. For example, if the thought, "hungry" pops up, let it pop up. But there is no need to complete it with, "I am hungry...and need a burrito right now".

Gassho,

Lu

[Jinyo]

Accepted Lu - no contradiction. I think sometimes when I try to put things in my own words it feels that way.

Gassho

Willow

[sittingzen]

Willow,

I agree with you! How can the finite possibly describe the infinite buddha nature? That is Jundo and Taigu's role

Gassho,

Lu