Cave of Ghosts

[Kokuu]

I don't get any lotus flowers either, Catfish. Today mostly the sound of wind and achy legs. I have often had the spontaneous smiling thing, though.

Whenever I feel like I am inside a soft cushion that is usually a sign of mental dullness. Noticing that is happening usually brings awareness back to the practice back in much the same way as it does from following a string of thoughts. Tibetan mahamudra practice has a variety of antidotes for mental dullness (also, its opposite, agitation) but I would be interested to hear if there is any advice from a shikantaza perspective.

Dogen Zen movie is on You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TinmRC2BS00

Gassho
Andy

[Jundo]

The Pink Flying Lotus is at the 22:00 mark.

My "5 Buddha" review of the movie, cheesy special effects and all, is here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6122-New-Master-Dogen-Movie&p=20686&viewfull=1#post20686

Hey, they needed to liven things up I guess.

Gassho, J

[alan.r]

Heh, well, this thread has me a little concerned. I don't know if I enter a "state" like the one Tony is describing, but while sitting zazen, after about twenty minutes, thoughts definitely settle and calm, gaps between thoughts get longer, and I feel a humming concentrated energy running through my body (no big deal, I just assume it's always there and now I'm quiet enough to notice). There are still thoughts and they come and go, but they are definitely less. I don't know if I am "focused" or "concentrated," but, well, I don't know. Also, while this certainly does not always occur, it does seem to occur more often than not. I could be absolutely wrong about this, but like Tony, I don't feel I seek this - it just sort of occurs. And frankly, this just feels "natural," though now I begin to suspect it's not.

After reading this thread and Jundo's response, I'm a little confused...

gassho...and thanks for the question Tony.

[sittingzen]

Hi,

I have been sitting in one form or another for many years. However, in terms of 'practicing' Zazen, maybe a year or so.


I struggle with the 'no goal; thing....

Four Noble Truths, 3rd cessation of suffering, then 4th the Path...paths lead somewhere whether literally or metaphorically.

Hi Tony,

I know exactly what you mean. I have, through my own searching, believe that my mind is always searching for the next best thing e.g., goal. And when I say that, I imply that the role of the mind is to constantly seek outward and not inward. We see this in our practice of just sitting. The thoughts that swirl, popping in and out, searching..searching..thinking. But the practice allows us to be a witness to these thoughts and realize that they are..not..real. We only assume them to be real because we engage and empower them. We give them life when there is no life to be given. Concepts and constructs, is all. Suzuki-roshi would speak about cultivating your Big Mind and shining a light on your inner awareness like a mirror as an antidote (zazen).

We read from those before us that we are already Realized. Zazen simply asserts this truth. By sitting and with continued effort and practce, the delusions dissolve. We sit like a stone, sometimes strong and sturdy, and sometimes weak. But there is no difference, we are the stone.

[Shugen]

I'm with Catfish. A couple of times, the giggles, sometimes a tear or two, usually a vague sense of contentment.


Shugen

[Jundo]

Heh, well, this thread has me a little concerned. I don't know if I enter a "state" like the one Tony is describing, but while sitting zazen, after about twenty minutes, thoughts definitely settle and calm, gaps between thoughts get longer, and I feel a humming concentrated energy running through my body (no big deal, I just assume it's always there and now I'm quiet enough to notice). There are still thoughts and they come and go, but they are definitely less. I don't know if I am "focused" or "concentrated," but, well, I don't know. Also, while this certainly does not always occur, it does seem to occur more often than not. I could be absolutely wrong about this, but like Tony, I don't feel I seek this - it just sort of occurs. And frankly, this just feels "natural," though now I begin to suspect it's not.

After reading this thread and Jundo's response, I'm a little confused...

gassho...and thanks for the question Tony.

Hi Alan,

Oh, what you describe is fine, Alan. Lovely.

What you describe is very different from intentionally pursuing a highly concentrated and absorbed state of Samadhi as the main purpose and object of Zazen.

We say that we drop "all judgments of good vs. bad Zazen in Zazen" ... but what you describe is good Zazen nonetheless, Alan! Yes, thoughts slow, sometimes fully clear, and one feels a great sense of balance. Yet, simultaneously, one sits without pursuing any outcome, without judging, embracing all with equanimity!

Dogen had a very special view of what he called "Zazen Samadhi" or "Jijuyu Zanmai" (something like "the self-fulfilling samadhi"). Yes, there is a balance of body-mind that is brought about in sitting, together with the expected calmness and clarity. Yes, thoughts will lessen or sometimes fully drop away. But vital to our sitting is that one sits free of chasing, free of judging, with equanimity yet with a sense of the Sacredness and Completeness in and as just the action and moment of Sitting. (As I often observe, how rarely in life do we experience some action with the sense that there is nothing lacking, nothing more that need be done in that moment to make the moment more sacred and complete!)

So, for example, Dogen describes his "Zazen Samadhi" as follows, really going over the roof in describing how Sacred is sitting (he literally talks about the Lotus Posture "with crossed legs" here, yet the posture is really not what is being emphasized as much as the jewel that is the whole doing, the Buddha-ness of the whole event) ... both body and mind, and that which is the balance of both and dropping both away. He also describes the lightness, and lack of lethargy of it all. Put all such together, and Dogen calls sitting itself "the king of samādhis samādhi".

From: Zanmai ō zanmai

Abruptly transcending all realms, to be greatly honored within the quarters of the buddhas and ancestors—this is sitting with legs crossed. Trampling the heads of the followers of alien ways and the legions of Māra, to be the one here within the halls of the buddhas and ancestors—this is sitting with legs crossed. Transcending the extreme of the extremes of the buddhas and ancestors is just this one dharma. Therefore, the buddhas and ancestors engage in it, without any further task.

...

The Buddha Śākyamuni addressed the great assembly, saying,

When sitting with legs crossed,
Body and mind realizing samādhi,
One’s majesty, the multitudes respect,
Like the sun illumining the world.
Removed, the lethargy clouding the mind,
The body light, without pain or fatigue;
The awareness similarly light and easy,
One sits calmly, like the dragon coiled.
King Māra is startled and fearful
On seeing depicted [one] sitting with legs crossed,
How much more [on seeing] one who realizes the way,
Sitting calmly without stirring.”

Thus, King Māra is startled and frightened to perceive the depiction of [someone] sitting with legs crossed — how much more [someone] actually sitting with legs crossed; the virtue cannot be fully reckoned. This being the case, the merit of our ordinary sitting is measureless.

... Clearly we know that sitting with legs crossed is the king of samādhis samādhi, is realization and entrance. All the samādhis are the attendants of this king samādhi. Sitting with legs crossed is upright body, is upright mind, is upright body and mind, is upright buddha and ancestor, is upright practice and realization, is upright head, is upright vital artery.

Now crossing the legs of the human skin, flesh, bones, and marrow, one crosses the legs of the king of samādhis samādhi. The World Honored One always maintains sitting with legs crossed; and to the disciples he correctly transmits sitting with legs crossed; and to the humans and gods he teaches sitting with legs crossed. The mind seal correctly transmitted by the seven buddhas is this.

The Buddha Śākyamuni, sitting with legs crossed under the bodhi tree, passed fifty small kalpas [eras of time], passed sixty kalpas, passed countless kalpas. Sitting with legs crossed for twenty-one days, sitting cross-legged for one time — this is turning the wheel of the wondrous dharma; this is the buddha’s proselytizing of a lifetime. There is nothing lacking. This is the yellow roll and vermillion roller [that holds all the Sutras and Commentaries]. ...

http://scbs.stanford.edu/sztp3/translations/shobogenzo/translations/zanmai_o_zanmai/translation.html

So, most important is to sit with such an attitude of Zazen as a sacred and complete act, your sitting as the Buddha Sitting, no other place or thing to do in all the universe, sitting in a light and balanced way, not dull and lethargic ... beyond goal and pursuit, in peace and equanimity ... such as a sacred action, the king of samādhis samādhi.

Gassho, J

[sittingzen]

Jundo, thank you for posting this response. Lots to mull over here.

[dharmasponge]

...interesting. I can honestly say that there is no sense of pursuing the sensations I describe either - should possibly have made that more clear. It just seems to be a natural progression of the act of sitting. Also it doesn't seem that far way from what Sheng Yen describes in the practice of Silent Illumination, he too states at the start of his description of the method (no method) that despite using stages to describe sitting we should not rely on or look for progression in this respect.


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[alan.r]

Hi Alan,

Oh, what you describe is fine, Alan. Lovely.

What you describe is very different from intentionally pursuing a highly concentrated and absorbed state of Samadhi as the main purpose and object of Zazen.

We say that we drop "all judgments of good vs. bad Zazen in Zazen" ... but what you describe is good Zazen nonetheless, Alan! Yes, thoughts slow, sometimes fully clear, and one feels a great sense of balance. Yet, simultaneously, one sits without pursuing any outcome, without judging, embracing all with equanimity!

Dogen had a very special view of what he called "Zazen Samadhi" or "Jijuyu Zanmai" (something like "the self-fulfilling samadhi). Yes, there is a balance of body-mind that is brought about in sitting, together with the expected calmness and clarity. Yes, thoughts will lessen or sometimes fully drop away. But vital to our sitting is that one sits free of chasing, free of judging, with equanimity yet with a sense of the Sacredness and Completeness in and as just the action and moment of Sitting. (As I often observe, how rarely in life do we experience some action with the sense that there is nothing lacking, nothing more that need be done in that moment to make the moment more sacred and complete!)

So, for example, Dogen describes his "Zazen Samadhi" as follows, really going over the roof in describing how Sacred is sitting (he literally talks about the Lotus Posture "with crossed legs" here, yet the posture is really not what is being emphasized as much as the jewel that is the whole doing, the Buddha-ness of the whole event) ... both body and mind, and that which is the balance of both and dropping both away. He also describes the lightness, and lack of lethargy of it all. Put all such together, and Dogen calls sitting itself "the king of samādhis samādhi".




So, most important is to sit with such an attitude of Zazen as a sacred and complete act, your sitting as the Buddha Sitting, no other place or thing to do in all the universe, sitting in a light and balanced way, not dull and lethargic ... beyond goal and pursuit, in peace and equanimity ... such as a sacred action, the king of samādhis samādhi.

Gassho, J

Thank you Jundo, both for the reassurance and the reminder about Dogen's writing on Samadhi. I remember, though I don't have the book handy, Dogen writing in one chapter something like: is sitting sitting within body-mind. Is it sitting dropping body-mind? Does body sit body and mind sit mind? I can't remember exactly, but I need to revisit it, apparently, because the idea in that chapter, if I'm recalling correctly, has to do with sitting with this attitude of nothing to attain (thus all these questions he tosses at the reader, like "stop trying to figure out your sitting and SIT"), that sitting is fully complete and sacred, and that it is an allowing, an opening, rather than a chasing or a wanting.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo, both for the reassurance and the reminder about Dogen's writing on Samadhi. I remember, though I don't have the book handy, Dogen writing in one chapter something like: is sitting sitting within body-mind. Is it sitting dropping body-mind? Does body sit body and mind sit mind? I can't remember exactly, but I need to revisit it, apparently, because the idea in that chapter, if I'm recalling correctly, has to do with sitting with this attitude of nothing to attain (thus all these questions he tosses at the reader, like "stop trying to figure out your sitting and SIT"), that sitting is fully complete and sacred, and that it is an allowing, an opening, rather than a chasing or a wanting.

Gassho

Hi Alan,

That is the same section of Shobogenzo, "Zanmai-O-Zanmai". Dogen is really riffing and free jazzing throughout Shobogenzo, so always rather interpretive about his "meaning" (as opposed to musical "feeling" in the words. Here is my typical post on "How to Hear Dogen, Jazz Man").

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9332-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Dogen-A-Love-Supreme

But let me give you a couple of impressions of what Dogen was diggin'

there is sitting with the mind, which is not the same as sitting with the body. There is sitting with the body, which is not the same as sitting with the mind. And there is sitting that is free of body and mind, which is not the same as “sitting that is free of body and mind.” Already to have attained the state like this is the Buddhist patriarchs’ state in which practice and understanding are in mutual accord. Maintain and rely upon this awareness, thought, reflection. Investigate this mind, will, consciousness.

My feel is that Dogen was recognizing that there is sitting with the body (the physical act of sitting and balanced posture). There is the mental aspect of sitting Zazen (for example, sitting free of or transcending thoughts of this or that, judgments, aversions and attractions). Yet, there is sitting so natural and whole that we even drop and forget about the need to "do" anything with body or mind (even forgetting the idea of needing to drop body and mind).

When he said " Maintain and rely upon this awareness, thought, reflection. Investigate this mind, will, consciousness." it is likely that Dogen means that we "maintain and investigate" these things by not getting tangled in them or letting them go. Dogen has a way of saying things kind of with a slippery meaning (kind of how a person might sometimes say "I just LOVE baseball" sarcastically, meaning that he really does not care for baseball). So, most scholars agree that, based on his writings overall, Dogen was actually speaking of transcending thoughts, ideas, etc. For example, this from Dogen Gakudo Yojin-shu Nishijima-Cross [Tanahashi in brackets]

Perceptiveness is not important. Scholastic understanding is not important. Mind, will, consciousness are not foremost. Mental images, thoughts, and reflections are not foremost. Without using these things at all, people in the past have experienced the balanced state of body and mind and entered into the Buddhist Truth [Without using any of these, harmonize body-and-mind and enter the buddha way.]. That is what Gautama Buddha meant when he said that Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara changed direction and lost consciousness of his perception [“Avalokiteshavara turns the stream inward and disregards knowing objects.”]. When it is clear that two faces – movement and calmness – do not really appear, that is the state of balance [Separation between the two aspects of activity and stillness simply does not arise. This is harmonizing.]. ...

Buddhist students should know that the Buddhist truth is beyond thinking, discrimination, supposition, reflection, perception, or understanding. We spend our lives dallying around inside of these things, so if the Buddhist truth exists within them, why have we not realised the Buddhist truth yet? Students of the truth should not rely on the faculties of thinking, discriminating and so on. At the same time, we are always equipped with thinking and other faculties, and if we apply them with our own body and examine our situation, then it is like looking into a clear mirror.

Likewise, the other quote from Zanmai-O-Zanmai seems to imply that the sitting of Zazen both embodies and transcends all these philosophical questions and limited points of view. Furthermore, Zazen is whole and complete without need for bowing, incense and all such [during the time of sitting, anyway, because Dogen would bow, light incense etc. at other times]. :

We should investigate: at the very moment we are sitting, are all realms vertical? Are they horizontal? At the very moment we are sitting, what about that sitting? Is it a flip? Is it “brisk and lively”? Is it thinking? Is it not thinking? Is it making? Is it without making? Are we sitting within sitting? Are we sitting within body and mind? Are we sitting having sloughed off “within sitting,” “within body and mind,” and so on? We should investigate one thousand points, ten thousand points, such as these. “We should do the sitting with legs crossed of the body; we should do the sitting with legs crossed of the mind; we should do the sitting with legs crossed of the body and mind sloughed off.”

My former master, the old buddha [Dōgen’s teacher in China, Tiantong Rujing], said,

“Studying Zen is body and mind sloughed off. You get it only by just sitting; you don’t need to burn incense, make prostrations, recollect the buddha, practice repentence, or look at scripture.”

Dogen had a wild way of playing the music, man.

Gassho, J

[Myosha]

Dropping body-mind with non-thinking thinking, unspecifically unaware of the ineffable is really nothing special eternally.

Since it doesn't work, it works.

Thank you.


Gassho,
Edward

[alan.r]

Hi Alan,

That is the same section of Shobogenzo, "Zanmai-O-Zanmai". Dogen is really riffing and free jazzing throughout Shobogenzo, so always rather interpretive about his "meaning" (as opposed to musical "feeling" in the words. Here is my typical post on "How to Hear Dogen, Jazz Man").

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9332-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Dogen-A-Love-Supreme

But let me give you a couple of impressions of what Dogen was diggin'



My feel is that Dogen was recognizing that there is sitting with the body (the physical act of sitting and balanced posture). There is the mental aspect of sitting Zazen (for example, sitting free of or transcending thoughts of this or that, judgments, aversions and attractions). Yet, there is sitting so natural and whole that we even drop and forget about the need to "do" anything with body or mind (even forgetting the idea of needing to drop body and mind).

When he said " Maintain and rely upon this awareness, thought, reflection. Investigate this mind, will, consciousness." it is likely that Dogen means that we "maintain and investigate" these things by not getting tangled in them or letting them go. Dogen has a way of saying things kind of with a slippery meaning (kind of how a person might sometimes say "I just LOVE baseball" sarcastically, meaning that he really does not care for baseball). So, most scholars agree that, based on his writings overall, Dogen was actually speaking of transcending thoughts, ideas, etc. For example, this from Dogen Gakudo Yojin-shu Nishijima-Cross [Tanahashi in brackets]



Likewise, the other quote from Zanmai-O-Zanmai seems to imply that the sitting of Zazen both embodies and transcends all these philosophical questions and limited points of view. Furthermore, Zazen is whole and complete without need for bowing, incense and all such [during the time of sitting, anyway, because Dogen would bow, light incense etc. at other times]. :



Dogen had a wild way of playing the music, man.

Gassho, J

This is wonderfully illuminative - it makes that chapter really dance in new ways for me. Dogen's play was always there, but, like with jazz, sometimes I feel I can get right in and play and flow with Dogen; sometimes not so much. This chapter always was on the verge, like I couldn't quite catch the flow of the riffing - feeling it more now.

Thank you so much Jundo. And thanks to Tony for beginning this thread.

Gassho

[Rich]

The goal is in your mind. The path is just this moment world.

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[Jundo]

The goal is in your mind. The path is just this moment world.

Rich, you are obviously a man of much fewer words than ol' Dogen. Or just the same?

Gassho, J

[Rich]

I love dogen, so many things he has said resonate.

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