Cave of Ghosts

[dharmasponge]

I seem to be fortunate enough to focus on the "just sitting' very quickly and as a result bodily off sensation is quite swift.

I then seem to find my mind in a very comfortable, calm and quiet state. Sounds don't disturb me and thoughts are nominal.

I am not unaware at this time, I do notice a distinct sense of being disassociated with my body. As if I have come out of it but only a little...just enough to feel separate from it.

Tactile feelings give the impression of being contrived or imagined. Like a memory of a body.

There is a sense of self...but its like a dull humming...I cannot explain it any other way.

I'm concerned that this is some sort of wallowing in a state of numbness rather than a positive result of sitting - I think the Chan practitioners call it "Entering the cave of ghosts on the far side of the mountain"...typically poetic

Is this a positive state and I should continue or somehow abandon it? I am not attaching to it one way or another in terms of good/bad but I would not want to fall into a trap either.

Thanks!

Tony...

[Jundo]

Hi again Tony,

This is the second post you have made this evening reporting an unusual experience in your sitting. I don't know what to make of this either, right off.

In our way of sitting, one should not experience a sensation of being disassociated from the body (it happens, but not as a frequent or encouraged experience).

Can you provide me here a more detailed description of what you are doing with mind and body while sitting? What are you focused on, what are you doing with thoughts? What about your breathing?

Perhaps we should Skype as well.

Gassho, Jundo

[dharmasponge]

Hi Jundo,

I laughed....just joined and fired off two questions that describe unusual experiences. I promise this isn't all I am made of haha!

In terms of my practice, I was inspired by Sheng Yens "The Method of No Method". Not in its entirity but it did offer some practical advice as to were to start. As I mentioned I came from a very hands on tradition that was the antithesis of Shikantaza/Caodong.

So practically I will sit, follow the breath for a minute of two to calm things down. Then become aware of just sitting...nothing else really. I will initially be aware of the weight of my body (but not focussing on it)...there will be an awareness of thoughts and thoughts of thoughts after around 20mins I will notice that I am no longer aware of my body - much as I describe in the first post above. This is then followed by a very serene sense of calm, like being pulled out of the middle of London and dropped into a warm, quiet room. I can still hear everything but its sooooo far away and of no consequence to me in terms of its ability to disturb the serenity.

I could remain in this 'state' for a while. If its fractured for whatever reason I will return to the breath as a grounding, then the process repeats itself.

Hope that helps.

_/|\_

Tony...

[dharmasponge]

ps....Skype would be good. I am in work at the moment though awaiting my next patient (I work in Psychologies as a CBT Therapist).

[sittingzen]

Hi Tony,

How long have you been practicing? In zazen, there is no "goal" to achieve. We just sit. Many new practitioners may try and seek a samadhi-like state, and bodily sensations that arise may just be trappings that take you further away from the practice of just sitting. I would speak to Jundo directly. Just my two cents.

_/\_

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

I laughed....just joined and fired off two questions that describe unusual experiences. I promise this isn't all I am made of haha!

In terms of my practice, I was inspired by Sheng Yens "The Method of No Method". Not in its entirity but it did offer some practical advice as to were to start. As I mentioned I came from a very hands on tradition that was the antithesis of Shikantaza/Caodong.

So practically I will sit, follow the breath for a minute of two to calm things down. Then become aware of just sitting...nothing else really. I will initially be aware of the weight of my body (but not focussing on it)...there will be an awareness of thoughts and thoughts of thoughts after around 20mins I will notice that I am no longer aware of my body - much as I describe in the first post above. This is then followed by a very serene sense of calm, like being pulled out of the middle of London and dropped into a warm, quiet room. I can still hear everything but its sooooo far away and of no consequence to me in terms of its ability to disturb the serenity.

I could remain in this 'state' for a while. If its fractured for whatever reason I will return to the breath as a grounding, then the process repeats itself.

Hope that helps.

_/|\_

Tony...

Sounds like on quick impression, if you are influenced by Sheng Yen's "Method of No Method", you may be falling into a kind of concentrated Samadhi. It all sounds very pleasant, but we do not emphasize such states in Shikantaza. We remain much more present in ordinary consciousness.

Please watch all our "Beginner's Videos" to understand. Our sitting is not really about falling into highly concentrated states. Shikantaza might be better described as sitting in the Whole and Sacred action of just sitting as what is.

After that, you can set up a time when we can Skype.

Gassho, J

[Joyo]

Tony, thx for posting this. I too have often had the same experiences that you are describing. I guess, for me, I have decided to not cling to them, sometimes I feel this way, and it is very relaxing, but not a goal to achieve, or an attachment to make. If your intention to sit zazen is to achieve this state, then that would probably not be good (although I am very new and feel somewhat uncomfortable giving advice since I'm still learning a lot), but if you can just sit with whatever happens, relaxing feeling, racing mind, just remain calm and let the thoughts go.

Gassho,
Treena

[Nengyo]

I feel a little left out. No kaboom, no disembodiment, no levitating on a lotus flower to Buddha, just me and the wall getting our shikantaza on. I guess I will have to be happy with numb legs and a sore back as my transcendental experience

[Rich]

States of mind are always changing. Not something to dwell or rely on. Just keep practicing.

Sent from my RM-860_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Someone wrote to ask me about the "Cave of Ghosts". It is an old Chinese phrase that refers to some kind of mental numbness that can arise in practicing forms of mental absorbtion.

Shikantaza comes in various flavors, and various Teachers will express Zazen in their own ways. As Tony mentioned it, I went back to find the Chinese Chan Teacher Sheng-yen's description of "Silent Illumination" and his understanding of "Shikantaza", as well as his mention of "Cave of Ghosts". I cannot really agree with Sheng-yen's presentation of Shikantaza here. Sheng-yen's way, very typical of some Teachers, is very focused on reaching concentrated states free of thoughts and building deep states of clear concentration and absorbtion. He says that Shikantaza is about having "no thoughts in the mind", and has the goal of reaching some rather special "silent" states of mind in Samadhi. This is not right I feel, and misleading on the non-goal of Just Sitting (he seems to say so too, in the opening lines that this goal of reaching a state where "the mind should be clear and have no thoughts" is not the Soto way in Japan. He also says that in Japan "'just sitting', means just paying attention to sitting or just keeping the physical posture of sitting". While this latter comment does describe how some Japanese Teachers do teach, I feel it misses that mark by an over-emphasis of focus on posture).

I would say that, in Shikantaza, we also sit in Silent Illumination ... yet this "silence" is not a matter of thoughts or no thoughts, and this "illumination" light up all things as they are without falling into unusually concentrated states of mind Samadhi. So, I think this description by Master Sheng-yen rather mis-presents Shikantaza as being too clear of thoughts.

Lecture given by master Sheng-yen during the Dec. 1993 Ch'an retreat, edited by Linda Peer and Harry Miller

The Japanese term "shikantaza" literally means "just sitting." Its original Chinese name, mo-chao, means "silent illumination." "Silent" refers to not using any specific method of meditation and having no thoughts in your mind. "Illumination" means clarity. You are very clear about the state of your body and mind.

When the method of silent illumination was taken to Japan it was changed somewhat. The name given to it, "just sitting", means just paying attention to sitting or just keeping the physical posture of sitting, and this was the new emphasis. The word "silent" was removed from the name of the method and the understanding that the mind should be clear and have no thoughts was not emphasized. In silent illumination, "just sitting" is only the first step. While you maintain the sitting posture, you should also try to establish the "silent" state of the mind. Eventually you reach a point where the mind does not move and yet is very clear. That unmoving mind is "silent," and that clarity of mind is "illumination." This is the meaning of "silent illumination." ...

Words are forgotten" means you experience no words, no language, no ideas, and no thought. There is no discrimination. This in combination with the second phrase, "In utter clarity everything appears," means that although words, language and discrimination do not function, everything is still seen, heard, tasted and so on.

He warns that one is then in danger of falling into the "Cave of Ghosts", which he seems to be describing as still having too many subtle thoughts ...

Someone told me that when he uses the Silent Illumination method, he eventually gets to a point where there is nothing there and he rests. That is not true Silent Illumination. In Silent Illumination everything is there, but the mind is not moving. A person may think he has no thoughts because the coarser wandering thoughts are absent, but there will be fine, subtle wandering thoughts of which he is unaware. He may think there is nothing there and so stop practicing. In Chinese this is called "Being on the dark side of a mountain in a cave inhabited by ghosts." The mountain is dark, so there is nothing to see, and in the cave of ghosts, what can one accomplish?

Again, his description of Soto Shikantaza is a bit off to my ear ...

Now I would like to explain how to use the method of shikantaza. ...

Next, be aware of your body, but do not think of it as yourself. Regard your body as a car you drive. You have to handle the car well, but it is not you. If you think of your body as yourself, you will be bothered by pain, itchiness and other vexations. Just take care of the body and be aware of it. The Chinese name for this method can be translated as "just take care of sitting." You have to be mindful of your body as the driver must be mindful of the car, but the car is not the driver.

After a period of time, the body will sit naturally and cause no problems. Now you can begin to pay attention to the mind. If you were eating, your mind should be the "mind of eating," and you would pay attention to that mind. When you are sitting, your mind should be the "mind of sitting." You watch this sitting mind. Two different thoughts alternate: the mind of sitting and the mind, or thought, that watches the mind of sitting. First you watch the body sitting with little attention to the mind. When the body drops away, watch the mind. What is the mind? It is the mind of sitting! When your attention dissipates, you will lose awareness of this sitting mind and the sensations of the body will return. Then you should again watch the body sitting. Another possibility is that while you watch the mind you fall into a dull state, like "Being on the dark side of the mountain in a cave inhabited by ghosts." When you become aware of this situation, your bodily sensations return, and you should go back to watching them. Thus these two objects of attention, the body and the mind, are also used alternately.

In the state where you watch the mind, are you aware of the external environment, sound for example? If you want to hear sound, you will, and if you do not want to hear sound, you won't. At this point, you primarily pay attention to your own mind. Although you may hear sounds, they do not create discriminations.

There are three stages in this practice. You should start at the beginning and progress to deeper levels. First be mindful of your body. Then be mindful of your mind, and of the two thoughts alternating in it. The third stage is enlightenment. The mind is clear and, as the poem quoted said, "In silence, words are forgotten. In utter clarity, things appear." When you first practice, you will probably be in the first or second level. If you use this method correctly you will not enter into samadhi.

This last point needs clarification. It depends on how we use the term "samadhi." In Buddhadharma, samadhi has many meanings. For instance, Sakyamuni Buddha was always in samadhi. His mind was not moving, yet he still continued to function. This is wisdom. Sakyamuni Buddha's samadhi is great samadhi and this is the same as wisdom. When I said that in the practice of Silent Illumination, you should not enter samadhi, I meant worldly samadhi where you forget about space and time and are oblivious to the environment. The deeper kind of samadhi, which is the same as wisdom, is in fact the goal of Silent Illumination.
http://www.chancenter.org/chanctr/dd...s/02-1995.html

This may be a wonderful method for some, but I fail to find here an expression of true "Just Sitting" beyond goal and searching, and is not how we sit Shikantaza here in our Sangha and most of the Soto Tradition. Here, one sits Shikantaza, Attaining by radical Non-Attaining, 'Non-thinking' right through both thinking or not thinking.

Gassho, Jundo

[dharmasponge]

Hi Tony,

How long have you been practicing? In zazen, there is no "goal" to achieve. We just sit. Many new practitioners may try and seek a samadhi-like state, and bodily sensations that arise may just be trappings that take you further away from the practice of just sitting. I would speak to Jundo directly. Just my two cents.

_/\_

Hi,

I have been sitting in one form or another for many years. However, in terms of 'practicing' Zazen, maybe a year or so.


I struggle with the 'no goal; thing....

Four Noble Truths, 3rd cessation of suffering, then 4th the Path...paths lead somewhere whether literally or metaphorically.

[dharmasponge]

I feel a little left out. No kaboom, no disembodiment, no levitating on a lotus flower to Buddha, just me and the wall getting our shikantaza on. I guess I will have to be happy with numb legs and a sore back as my transcendental experience

The lotus flower bit would be wonderful....alas this is not the case. I am being honest though with regards to the experience, this is what happens. Frankly I wish it didn't as it has created this concern as to its legitamacy.

[Jundo]

Frankly I wish it didn't as it has created this concern as to its legitamacy.

Hi Tony,

I would say that it is a very real, legitimate experience. It is just a matter of differences in approaches.

Gassho, Jundo

[Kokuu]

I struggle with the 'no goal; thing....

Four Noble Truths, 3rd cessation of suffering, then 4th the Path...paths lead somewhere whether literally or metaphorically.

Stephen Batchelor's recent re-evaluation of the Pali Canon is interesting. He concludes that the path is actually both the goal and intended destination. Being on the path is the way out of suffering. There is nothing else.

This seems to chime nicely with Dogen's own idea of practice-realisation and Lam-Dre (taking the path as the result) in the Tibetan Sakya tradition.

How does it feel to take a path without destination?

Gassho
Andy

[Nengyo]

The lotus flower bit would be wonderful....alas this is not the case. I am being honest though with regards to the experience, this is what happens. Frankly I wish it didn't as it has created this concern as to its legitamacy.

I don't doubt your sincerity. Jundo sometimes talks of "swimming in the deep end" or "cloudless" places. I'm sure many people get all kinds meditative experiences. I usually don't. The closest I've come to that is the one time when I couldn't stop laughing or smiling for a little while after sitting. Also, when I first started sitting, a few times it felt like my arms or legs were changing proportions on me (if that makes any sense.) Odd, but not very "enlightening" hahaha.

Other than that, it's usually plain old shikantaza for me. For the record, I am quite content with it. A "boring" sit, a few bows, smile at some strangers, try to do some nice things for people, try not to yell at some other people... it's all good practice.

By the way, the lotus flower bit is from a movie about Dogen called "zen" You should check it out if you haven't. It's pretty good.