A question that has been irreconcilable for years....

[dharmasponge]

Hello everyone,

Just joined and this is my first post, I am hoping I can get some clarity on a 'thorn in my side' that I have been unable to remove for over two decades....no pressure then eh?

A long time Buddhist (not relevant) I have, like many others been through the various traditions before coming to settle (or so I think) in a Shikantaza/Silent Illumination practice.

What I have found over the years is that my practice has a taste. If 'Zen' it tastes of Japan and Japanese culture....it would often affect what I eat and what music I listen to. If I practice Vipassana it would taste of all things Thai.....Hwadu, Korean etc....etc....

the problem is that despite being able to be relatively strong willed and disciplined, if when practicing say Shikantaza for several months we had a really hot day ( a rarity here in the UK) it would remind me of my last trip to Thailand and KABOOM!...before you can say "shit there I go again..." I am irresistibly drawn into reading the Suttas rather than Dogen and my practice would shift into Anapanasati. At these times the utter legitimacy of my new found nest is beyond question and I shudder to think of why I didn't remain in that practice in the past.

Then, (yep you guessed it) I might hear a Shakuhachi playing on a film and KABOOM! <again>....away I go into Zen(land).

...I read something extolling the practice of Hwadu....KABOOOM!

KABOOM...!
KABOOM...!
KABOOM...!
KABOOM...!

This can often happen several times a day too...it never inhibits me from my practice but it often infects it with a questioning and weighing up of the virtues of each method.

Has anyone else experienced this or am I just a stupid grasping fool!

Thanks in advance, I am glad to be 'in here'....feels good!



Tony...

[Hans]

Hello Tony,

nice to meet you this way (btw. a pic would be nice).

I know exactly what you mean, my two cents simply are that one of these days one has to drill deep, instead of changing drilling spots all the while. Once you've really "found" yourself in a practise, it'll all just be your life anyway, no matter what texture or taste a new experience might have. The question is (or rather one question), can you afford to play around indefinitely?

Only you can do it, and only doing it will get it done.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

Zen or Buddhism is not a matter of place, food, music, clothing or the like. Don't confuse local wrappings with the Heart of the Matter. To feel so is kind of a hang-up in one's mind, nothing more.

One does not need to eat Tofu, watch Kurosawa movies and sit on a Tatami Mat to practice Zen from a Japanese Tradition.

There are many good Paths, suited to different feet. Find the one suited to you, and STICK WITH SO.

One can still Practice Japanese Zen while eating Italian Ravioli and dancing Cuban Salsa.

Gassho, Jundo

[dharmasponge]

Hello Tony,

nice to meet you this way (btw. a pic would be nice).

Ah, just managed to upload a pic of my mug!

[Daijo]

We're not expected to learn Salsa are we? I'm struggling enough with the sewing right now.

Gassho,

Chuck

[dharmasponge]

Zen or Buddhism is not a matter of place, food, music, clothing or the like. Don't confuse local wrappings with the Heart of the Matter. To feel so is kind of a hang-up in one's mind, nothing more.

One does not need to eat Tofu, watch Kurosawa movies and sit on a Tatami Mat to practice Zen from a Japanese Tradition.

There are many good Paths, suited to different feet. Find the one suited to you, and STICK WITH SO.

One can still Practice Japanese Zen while eating Italian Ravioli and dancing Cuban Salsa.

Gassho, Jundo

Thanks Jundo,

What is going on there though? Is it nothing more than a grasping mind?

Tony...

[Hans]

Hmm....slightly off topic, but I really fancy some Ravioli now....

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

Thanks Jundo,

What is going on there though? Is it nothing more than a grasping mind?

Tony...

Hi Tony,

Well, I am not sure.

Why don't you see if you can Practice for awhile sitting Zazen while dropping all the thoughts of music and food cultural associations. When one comes, see if you can just not grab on.

Let us know what happens.

Gassho, J

[Daitetsu]

Hi Tony,

What is going on there though? Is it nothing more than a grasping mind?

I guess you still have not found a practice where you really, really feel totally at home with.
Perhaps you need more time to make a nest snug? (to use your imagery)
So I'd suggest to stay longer with a certain practice - even if you feel drawn to another one after a few weeks/months - and see what happens if you stubbornly stay with it.

Gassho,

Timo

[Kokuu]

Hi Tony

I have been through more than my fair share of Buddhist paths. It is true that certain practices are attached to certain cultural traditions and liturgy in different languages but a lot of that is just packaging. I switched from Tibetan Buddhism to Zen early this year and it took a wee while not to feel I should be reciting the mahamdura prayer at the beginning of each sit but that passed pretty quickly. The important thing is the practice rather than the trappings. I still have some Tibetan images around and like a decent momo now and again but that is different to practice. Stick with one practice for a while and, like Timo points to, it soon feels natural.

If a thought comes up to do anapanasati is it any different to a thought of wanting to eat toast based on smelling someone cooking breakfast? It may be related to practice but its just a thought. Why treat it any differently to any other thought? If you start counting the breath, once you notice just go back to just sitting.

As regards weighing up each method, I have done this too. In economics it is known as 'opportunity cost' or, in other words 'what am I missing out on by doing what I am doing?'. Again, this is just thinking. if you have resolved to practice one method for a certain amount of time (and I would set this as an intention) then just remind yourself of this and go back to sitting. Everything else is the mind moving. As someone who has done many Buddhist practices, almost all of them come down to the same thing in the end - sitting with all things. As one wise person once said: The great way is not difficult - just avoid picking and choosing.

Gassho
Andy

[sittingzen]

Hi Tony,

When you sit, many (or none) thoughts may arise. And when you leave the zafu, many (or none) thoughts may arise. You either let them float by, or you attach to them. The responses above are all wonderful.

_/\_

[Ishin]

I think there might be a tendency, especially from a Western mindset, to somehow indulge a little bit in the mindset that when we study, in this case, Zen with a Japanese flavor, that there is something exotic, mystical or adventuresome about it. It is like doing a travel trip of spirituality in which you experience Thai, Japanese, Zen, Tibetan styles. It becomes like an Epcot version of Buddhism, each little section with it's own giftshop, cuisine and sights to be seen. To me, the extent to which we do this misses the point. I think it becomes more of an exercise of looking without, rather than using the practice to look within. I really like Timo's suggestion of practicing one style for a longer period of time to see where it leads you.

Maybe you could try doing Zazen while eating some Sheppard's Pie. I personally don't feel the personal practice of Zen, needs to be any more Japanese than the pracrice of Catholicism means you are a citizen of ancient Rome.

Gassho C

PS Welcome to Treeleaf it is nice to see you here.

[Nindo]

All practices are beautiful. The true yard stick though is whether what you practice helps you to "stop all evil, practice good, save all sentient beings".

Trungpa Rinpoche's "Cutting through Spiritual Materialism" comes to mind - maybe this can offer a helpful perspective. If not, please don't consider it a judgement of your practice in any way.

Gassho,
Nindo

It does not matter what we use to achieve
self-justification: the wisdom of sacred books, diagrams or charts,
mathematical calculations, esoteric formulae, fundamentalists
religion, depth psychology, or any other mechanism. Whenever we
begin to evaluate, deciding that we should or should not do this or
that, then we have already associated our practice or our knowledge
with categories, one pitted against the other, and that is spiritual
materialism, the false spirituality of our spiritual advisor.
Whenever we a have a dualistic notion such as, "I am doing this
because I want to achieve a particular state of consciousness, a
particular state of being," the automatically we separate ourselves
from the reality of what we are.

If we ask ourselves, "What is wrong with evaluating, with
taking sides?", the answer is that, when we formulate a secondary
judgment, "I should be doing this and should avoid doing that," then
we have achieved a level of complication which takes us a long way
from the basic simplicity of what we are. The simplicity of
meditation means just experiencing the ape instinct of ego. If
anything more than this is laid onto our psychology, then it becomes
a very heavy, thick mask, a suit of armor.

It is important to see that the main point of any spiritual
practice is to step out of the bureaucracy of ego. This means
stepping out of ego's constant desire for a higher, more spiritual,
more transcendental version of knowledge, religion, virtue,
judgment, comfort or whatever it is that a particular ego is
seeking. One must step out of spiritual materialism. If we do not
step out of spiritual materialism, if we in fact practice it, then
we may eventually find ourselves possessed of a huge collection of
spiritual paths. We may feel these spiritual collections to be very
precious. We have studied so much. We may have studied Western
philosophy or Oriental philosophy, practiced yoga or perhaps studied
under dozens of great masters. We have achieved and we have
learned. We believe that we have accumulated a hoard of knowledge.
And yet, having gone through all this, there is still something to
give up. It is extremely mysterious! How could this happen?
Impossible! But unfortunately it is so. Our vast collections of
knowledge and experience are just part of ego's display, part of the
grandiose quality of ego. We display them to the world and, in so
doing, reassure ourselves that we exist, safe and secure, as
"spiritual" people.

But we have simply created a shop, an antique shop. We
could be specializing in oriental antiques or medieval Christian
antiques or antiques from some other civilization or time, but we
are, nonetheless, running a shop. Before we filled our shop with so
many things the room was beautiful: whitewashed walls and a very
simple floor with a bright lamp burning in the ceiling. There was
one object of art in the middle of the room and it was beautiful.
Everyone who came appreciated its beauty, including ourselves.

But we were not satisfied and we thought, "Since this one
object makes my room so beautiful, if I get more antiques, my room
will be even more beautiful." So we began to collect, and the end
result was chaos.

We searched the world over for beautiful objects - India,
Japan, many different countries. And each time we found an antique,
because we were dealing with only one object at a time, we saw it as
beautiful and thought it would be beautiful in our shop. But when
we brought the object home and put it there, it became just another
addition to our junky collection. The beauty of the object did not
radiate out any more, because it was surrounded by so many other
beautiful things. It did not mean anything anymore. Instead of a
room full of beautiful antiques we created a junk shop!

Proper shopping does not entail collecting a lot of
information or beauty, but it involves fully appreciating each
individual object. This is very important. If you really
appreciate an object of beauty, then you completely identify with it
and forget yourself. It is like seeing a very interesting,
fascinating movie and forgetting that you are the audience. At that
moment there is no world; your whole being is that scene of that
movie. It is that kind of identification, complete involvement with
one thing. Did we actually taste it and chew it and swallow it
properly, that one object of beauty, that one spiritual teaching?
Or did we merely regard it as a part of our vast and growing
collection?

I place so much emphasis on this point because I know that
all of us have come to the teachings and practice of meditation not
to make a lot of money, but because we genuinely want to learn, want
to develop ourselves. But if we regard knowledge as an antique, as
"ancient wisdom" to be collected, then we are on the wrong path.

[shikantazen]

Thanks for that post Andy.

I am going through something similar. When I initially started "just sitting" alone didn't seem enough. I used to start with "just sitting" but not satisfied would move to anapanasati and then to counting breaths and then to just sitting and on and on. This used to happen within the same sitting many times.

After few months of sitting, the issue seemed to subside and I was able to stick and be with one practice - just sitting. But again since the past few days I am seeing those initial tendencies seemed to return. I didn't actually switch practices yet but my mind seems to be strongly urging me to. Now I feel the best solution for this is not to even talk about it. dont even make this post that i am making now. just give it some time and let it pass. however long it takes to pass.

I think this loss of faith happens mainly with shikantaza as we do nothing. I have a feeling though that in the long run we get adept at dealing with this loss in trust.

one mistake i did when moving from other practices into zen is not coming in with a fresh mind. In those other practices following forms (bowing, zendo manners etc) was not that important and I assumed by default that it doesn't really matter. In those methods enlightenment was the goal and when zen teachers and senior students kept telling me there is no goal or gaining idea i thought that was just philosophy and not important. i would advise anyone starting in zen especially from other practices to be aware of these tendencies.

gassho, sam

[Dosho]

Hi Tony,

Just a technical issue: You uploaded a picture to your profile, but that's not the same as an avatar that shows on your posts. However, you can use the same picture if you want.

Gassho,
Dosho