Thought "volume" during Zazen

[dsaly1969]

I have just started back with a sitting practice as well. I also think at the beginning there is much more of the "monkey mind" process going on. My first few sessions had quite a bit of "thought volume" and frequency. I spent a few minutes doing some breath mindfulness, but as stated above that is not shikantaza. I think part of the initial struggle will be breaking the habit of immersing oneself into the thought and learning to just sit and watch.

I have been using the Beginner's videos as a daily refresher for right now.

[Joyo]

I have just started back with a sitting practice as well. I also think at the beginning there is much more of the "monkey mind" process going on. My first few sessions had quite a bit of "thought volume" and frequency. I spent a few minutes doing some breath mindfulness, but as stated above that is not shikantaza. I think part of the initial struggle will be breaking the habit of immersing oneself into the thought and learning to just sit and watch.

I have been using the Beginner's videos as a daily refresher for right now.

Hi Steven, welcome to Treeleaf. If you just focus on being still, in time, you will see that there really wasn't a habit to break. Thoughts come, and they go, sometimes they are stubborn and they stay awhile. It's all good. I'm pretty new to all of this as well. I think the biggest thing I've learned, so far, is to not judge my shikantaza, just let it go, and be with whatever it is.


Treena

[Nameless]

Hey Steven,

Welcome to the Sangha. It's such a welcoming and helpful community. In practice sometimes the thoughts are quiet, like they're distant music, at other times it's like being at a metal concert. At other times they grow silent all together. I'd practiced a few different types of meditation before Shikantaza, but none felt as natural as it does. In the beginning, counting breaths can be beneficial. Then there's just focusing on breathing without the counting, and then even that is no longer the object of focus. As it's said, grasping and pushing thoughts is like fighting the flow. Attachment and aversion are both the building blocks of dukkha. If you find yourself pushing or grasping thoughts, don't beat yourself up about it, just smile and dive back into the flowing.

Gassho, John

[Jundo]

So wonderful to find so many folks of this thread "non-getting" the point of Shikantaza.

Lovely.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

This is also a good place to repost Suzuki Roshi's little talk, near the end of his life, on "sound" vs. "noise" from a Zen perspective.

The bluejays he hears seem to be a bothersome "noise" to him, but I welcome the bird calls during our Zazenkai each week, even the cawing crows. The birds sing a Sound (Bit "S") transcending beautiful and ugly, sound and noise, subjective or objective, inside and outside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHNyCAJXUXE

Gassho, J

[Joyo]

So wonderful to find so many folks of this thread "non-getting" the point of Shikantaza.

Lovely.

Gassho, J

Jundo, that's because we have so many good teachers


Treena

[Myosha]

Thank you.


Gassho,
Edward

[gwz]

Yes, Jundo, that is what I meant; thanks for helping to clarify (online communication is an art I'm not too versed in!!)

I arrived here from a vipassana practice, which was all about trying to quiet the mind & achieve access concentration. I found that when I started just sitting I still had the desire to do the same & produce a quiet state & it took a long time to let that go. I don't mean that I just sit there indulging in whatever comes along (or in the case of the Katy Perry song, trying to push it away as hard as possible ), but that I try to just be aware of whatever state my mind is in & let the thoughts come & go.

Hmm. I'm not an expert on vipassana, but I'm pretty sure that "access concentration" is a result of shamatha; AFAIK, vipassana is much more about awareness letting go then quieting. BTW, Sheng Yen seems to pretty much define "silent illumination" AKA shikantaza as 'simultaneous shamatha and vippasana', which jibes with my experience. Certainly, as Jundo notes, a certain amount of mental stillness is necessary if one is to be aware of anything other than one's "blender full of thinking".

[Ishin]

Hi Steven, welcome to Treeleaf. If you just focus on being still, in time, you will see that there really wasn't a habit to break. Thoughts come, and they go, sometimes they are stubborn and they stay awhile. It's all good. I'm pretty new to all of this as well. I think the biggest thing I've learned, so far, is to not judge my shikantaza, just let it go, and be with whatever it is.


Treena

Welcome Steven

Took the words out of my mouth. This is all in the instructional videos, but NOT thinking about how good your shikantaza is while doing shikantaza is a tricky path to walk. I save analysis for times when I am studying Zazen, and when sitting I sit with what I know to be "correct". When thoughts come up, big , little, loud, annoying or when outside distractions occur, cat, kids, car horn I just try to see them as leaves on a tree falling. They come into my awareness and they pass. I try not to judge them or give them much attention. They just are allowed to fall away. There is no need to evaluate them. Unless of course it is a Katy Perry song. In that case you might need to do some chanting, walking meditation or self reflection

[Ishin]

Jundo, that's because we have so many good teachers


Treena

Tooooo Funny not funny

We can all get on a bicycle but it takes some work and dedication to make it to the Tour de France.

Gassho
C

[Steven]

Welcome Steven

Took the words out of my mouth. This is all in the instructional videos, but NOT thinking about how good your shikantaza is while doing shikantaza is a tricky path to walk. I save analysis for times when I am studying Zazen, and when sitting I sit with what I know to be "correct". When thoughts come up, big , little, loud, annoying or when outside distractions occur, cat, kids, car horn I just try to see them as leaves on a tree falling. They come into my awareness and they pass. I try not to judge them or give them much attention. They just are allowed to fall away. There is no need to evaluate them. Unless of course it is a Katy Perry song. In that case you might need to do some chanting, walking meditation or self reflection

This has all been very helpful! I dropped the concentration on the breath and just sit now, without judging my thoughts or feeling self-conscious about my sitting. I think it would have taken me much longer to figure this out on my own. I still have trouble not entertaining my own thoughts at times, but it is not as prevalent as when I began sitting, nor am I beating myself up about it when I realize that I've been on some train of thought for a short period of time. I try to let it just fade out without feeding the fire more when I realize that I have been actively engaged in my thinking. It's a hard habit to break!

[kidbuda]

Welcome to the Sangha. My thoughts too have different "volume" and "sticking-ness" in my mind, when doing Zazen I just let them appear and disappear naturally, without clinging to any of them, without judging, without "going out of my here and now with them"

Gassho.

kb

[Ricky Ramos]

Thanks for this post. I have been feeling like a failure because I seemed not being able to make my mind still. I guess that the idea is to let my thokughts just be. The same happens with my body. I knew that I was always stressed out and, being hyper as I am, this made things worst. But, since I have been sitting and practicing Zazen, I have been feeling all the stress in the muscled in my sholders and back, that has also been distressing. And, again, thanks to this conversation, I believe that what I need to do is to just sit and let my muscles be. I pray that, in the long run, I will be able to accept my thoughts and my back muscles may learn to relax. Thanks for everything!