When Your Guru Goes Bad by Brad Warner

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40943

    #16
    Originally posted by Amelia
    The moment everything is "perfect", there may be cause for worry because that would mean that the universe is no longer operating as it usually does.
    Oh, Amelia! I truly believe that you have hit on one of the "fundamental principles of the universe", why the world is the way it is, a point that (modern science and Buddhist teachings would fully agree) explains why the universe can be the universe. Yes, if everything were frozen solid like ice or stone (which even move and flow, by the way, although too slowly for human eyes to see) ... if there were not the change and movement and "things constantly bumping into things" of life ... there would be no life, no universe, no happenings, no growth, no evolution of species, no you and me. "All is impermanent, all composite things change", and that is necessary to life, to our being alive.

    Perhaps our Zen way is to embody the fact that, though things are "far from perfect" to our human eyes perhaps (not always the way we like it, and sometimes so ugly to our eyes), they are perfectly-imperfectly just what they are. Though the universe is in constant motion, there is also a Stillness in motion and stillness. Though one of those boulders, from time to time, might roll right over us or the ice melt and sweep us away in its flow (and we will not be too happy about it, and try to stay out of the way, feeling about ice like the captain of the Titanic ) ... we can simultaneously learn to roll with it, go with the flow ... be the flowing, experience that we are the very rolling-flowing-stillness of life-death-no life-no death.

    But, yes, sometimes even master swimmers might lose their balance and sink in the flow.

    =============================

    Anyway, this movement toward "teachers" and "everybody on a first name basis" is a very Western, Yankee, modern thing. Don't misunderstand, because I think it a very good development. But back in old Asia, which were very "top-down" societies in places like China, Japan, Tibet and Korea, "master" meant just that in everything from Zen to the martial arts to being an apprentice blacksmith. One did not question one's master (not directly to his face, anyway ... something still very true in modern Japan) and if one's master told you to "jump" then you jump (even off a cliff). So, though a modern and Western development, I think it good to loosen that up into the role of teacher with something to teach.

    Yes, I believe that applied even to images of the Buddha who, while denying that he was "merely" a god (gods actually come below Buddhas in most Buddhist rankings) was assigned (in about all the Sutta and Sutra writings about him, even the earliest although increasing as time passed) all the superpowers, omniscience and perfections of character that human beings could imagine up. I am very glad too that modern eyes may start to consider that the historical Buddha may have been just a man too, although a very gifted and insightful one ... but that also there is another perspective on "Buddha" that is as I described above ...

    ... beyond all error and mistake, totally one with the universe, always doing what is to be done in every situation, always speaking with a Buddha's tongue, never possibly to trip or fall, at total peace and harmony and wholeness with all this self-life-world, each and all Golden Buddhas and Perfect Jewels.
    You see, human beings (even human Buddhas and Master Walkers) can be the most graceful walkers, yet sometimes fall down. Of course, a true Master Walker should not fall down too much and know how to roll with the fall. But simultaneously, in a Buddha's Eye, there is no place to fall, no up or down, nobody to do the falling, never was or will be ... right in the heart of the falling.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-30-2013, 01:33 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Joyo

      #17
      But much as I wanted to give up, I couldn’t. I knew my practice really was useful to me. Maybe the ultimate Solution to all my problems wasn’t waiting at the end of the rainbow. But something was happening, and I could feel it. And I could see that my teachers, even with their flaws, were part of that positive transformation

      Well said! Yes, I agree that something like a sex scandal should not be taken lightly as it is extreme. It is also good to know that our teachers see themselves as human, it makes it easier to relate to them.

      Gassho,
      Treena

      Comment

      • Heisoku
        Member
        • Jun 2010
        • 1338

        #18
        Who talks about when your guru comes up good?
        Heisoku 平 息
        Every day is a journey, and the journey itself is home. (Basho)

        Comment

        • pinoybuddhist
          Member
          • Jun 2010
          • 462

          #19
          Good point. Just imagine a world where this is news:

          TV news anchor: "In other news: recently the Buddhist world was shocked and elated when a local Zen teacher was witnessed by his students sitting while facing a wall!"


          Rafael

          Comment

          • Shokai
            Dharma Transmitted Priest
            • Mar 2009
            • 6463

            #20
            Just imagine a world where this is news:


            Good one Raf, gassho
            合掌,生開
            gassho, Shokai

            仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

            "Open to life in a benevolent way"

            https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

            Comment

            • Myozan Kodo
              Friend of Treeleaf
              • May 2010
              • 1901

              #21
              But, we have teachers here, not gurus...
              Gassho
              Myozan

              Comment

              • Ishin
                Member
                • Jul 2013
                • 1359

                #22
                Originally posted by Myozan Kodo
                But, we have teachers here, not gurus...
                Gassho
                Myozan
                When the student is ready the teacher will appear ( though not always in human form). For me now that has been Jundo and Taigu who I feel do an excellent job with this new "experiment" in a virtual Zendo. For me this works, and it has been the first time I felt comfortable engaging in this kind of work daily and diligently. But not just our "teachers", all of you here are teaching me so much.

                Thank you
                Gassho
                C
                Grateful for your practice

                Comment

                • Shokai
                  Dharma Transmitted Priest
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 6463

                  #23
                  With all due respect, I sit every morning in a zendo (a physical space in our home.) I have committed my service to a Sangha; a sangha as real as any sangha I have known. I continually make an effort to learn the things I am supposed to learn from my teachers (Jundo and Taigu included.) All of this experience is no more Virtual than the rest of the happenings in my life. Like I keep telling my wife Lillian, "There is no ownership in this life. We are all in it together; nobody gets out alive. "
                  Last edited by Shokai; 08-29-2013, 01:23 PM.
                  合掌,生開
                  gassho, Shokai

                  仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

                  "Open to life in a benevolent way"

                  https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 40943

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Clark
                    When the student is ready the teacher will appear ( though not always in human form). For me now that has been Jundo and Taigu who I feel do an excellent job with this new "experiment" in a virtual Zendo. For me this works, and it has been the first time I felt comfortable engaging in this kind of work daily and diligently. But not just our "teachers", all of you here are teaching me so much.

                    Thank you
                    Gassho
                    C
                    If you still say that in a year or two, or ten ... then I will listen to you.

                    Gassho, J
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    • Shokai
                      Dharma Transmitted Priest
                      • Mar 2009
                      • 6463

                      #25
                      *** ***
                      合掌,生開
                      gassho, Shokai

                      仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

                      "Open to life in a benevolent way"

                      https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

                      Comment

                      • Mp

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Shokai
                        With all due respect, I sit every morning in a zendo (a physical space in our home.) I have committed my service to a Sangha; a sangha as real as any sangha I have known. I continually make an effort to learn the things I am supposed to learn from my teachers (Jundo and Taigu included.) All of this experience is no more Virtual than the rest of the happenings in my life. Like I keep telling my wife Lillian, "There is no ownership in this life. We are all in it together; nobody gets out alive. "
                        Love it!

                        Gassho
                        Shingen

                        Comment

                        • Joyo

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Shokai
                          With all due respect, I sit every morning in a zendo (a physical space in our home.) I have committed my service to a Sangha; a sangha as real as any sangha I have known. I continually make an effort to learn the things I am supposed to learn from my teachers (Jundo and Taigu included.) All of this experience is no more Virtual than the rest of the happenings in my life. Like I keep telling my wife Lillian, "There is no ownership in this life. We are all in it together; nobody gets out alive. "
                          Also love it, and I am in complete agreement!! This is also the first time I've really felt comfortable (and motivated) to continue a daily practice of Zen.

                          Gassho,
                          Treena

                          Comment

                          • Shokai
                            Dharma Transmitted Priest
                            • Mar 2009
                            • 6463

                            #28
                            Gee, thanks guys and good to hear it Treena

                            gassho,
                            合掌,生開
                            gassho, Shokai

                            仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

                            "Open to life in a benevolent way"

                            https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

                            Comment

                            • Seizan
                              Member
                              • Sep 2012
                              • 213

                              #29
                              During my first dokusan with Taigu, he requested not to be put on a pedestal like some Tibetan denominations do. He very adamantly stated that he was human and very much prone to mistakes. None of us are Buddha's, we all have Buddha inside. Teachers are here to teach and guide and assist us on our journey. But I think it is a fall off the Middle Path to blindly believe in a teacher, or to project perfections onto a human walking this earth with us. It's just not fair- they are all on the journey as well. Also, I might point out that you can love the teachings but not the teacher. There were scandals in the past with Buddhist teachers having addictions problems- but those were their demons to struggle with. Osho was a very sketchy character, and yet a lot of his words can really strike home with people. It's a case of doing what the Buddha requested- listening to teachings, then proving them true to yourself, and then holding the teachings to your heart. Not the teacher. (Though we should love all openly and equally.)

                              Just my opinion,
                              Gassho,
                              Seizan

                              Comment

                              • Marcelo de Valnisio
                                Member
                                • Aug 2013
                                • 97

                                #30
                                I think we usually idealize the teacher as the figure seated in meditative pose on the top of a hill. Well, in most cases they are not. I believe that we must exercise compassion for all people, including our teachers. Sincerity is what matters. Weaknesses, we all have them.

                                Cut the expectations and cultivate compassion. ... I think it's the best thing to do.

                                Gassho.
                                Marcelo.

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