Effortless Effort in Zazen

[Jinyo]

Hi there - we seem to have a bit of a scramble with words and their meaning in this thread which probably wouldn't happen in a face to face conversation.

In the original comment 'women seekers' could mean gurus who seek out vulnerable females - or it could mean women who are seekers who are vulnerable to seduction.

Well, either way I think it was worth raising the point 'why particularly women' and Taigu clarified this by saying males aswell.

But then we seem to be focused on spiritual seduction that becomes romantic/sexual seduction.

Can't speak for Ohesu or Fugu but my comment was focussed on spiritual seduction and I think that's a very important topic because the internet, with all its diversions/charismatic speakers of many persuasions, is probably the biggest spiritual seducer of all.

Tree Leaf is a compass in all of this with a magnetic pole fixed and true.

That's all really,

Gassho

Willow

The real reason is shikantaza anyway. The source of all ethics.

Thank you Taigu.

Gassho
Shingen

[Taigu]

My intent was not to put them in any order.

The real reason is shikantaza anyway. The source of all ethics.

Gassho,

T.

[Jundo]

1) Threw the nature of our interaction through forum and internet.
2) the fact that both teachers are here in a stable relationship.
3) The importance of the precepts.

I would not put the order as 1,2,3 like so, and I don't think you meant to rank them. I would put it more 3,2,1 or, better, all are in top place. I don't particularly think that being centered on the internet would prevent a romantic relationship from developing in questionable situations, so we need care here too.

We have Ethics Guidelines and a system for reporting abuses, just in case. As far as I know, we have never ever had any such case around here.

Treeleaf Ethics Committee ( Complaint Box )

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7607-Treeleaf-Ethics-Committee-%28-Complaint-Box-%29

Gassho, Jundo

[Taigu]

OK, Oheso and Fugu :you will find out there a bunch of gurus interested in seduction, getting girls and boys in their beds. Here, we don t do that for three obvious reasons:

1) Through the nature of our interaction through forum and internet.
2) the fact that both teachers are here in a stable relationship.
3) The importance of the precepts.

Spiritual seduction exists, I have seen males attracted to female teachers, I have seen females attracted to male teachers. It does not make the seekers superficial, it is in the hands of the teacher, female or male, to help the student to change his attachment and go beyond, personnal love can indeed turn into universal compassion. it puts a lot of responsability n the hands of the teacher.

now, sometimes people fall in love, and that s life.

What do you want me to say?

I am baffled by how stiff some of us can be when gender related topics are discussed.

gassho


T.

[Fugu]

ladies?

Yes, I was surprised to read that women are primarily interested in seduction. It as not something I expected to hear here.

Gassho,
Fugu

[acss1]

Jundo,

For sure it is go seeking, which is why it isn't my cup of tea. Rev. Fujita commented that he liked the fact that he wanted the sitting to sitting to the sitting in much the same you pointed out. I could take or leave the rest of it. I do like the chapter about drifting off in meditation.

I just wanted to point out that he isn't a spiritual huckster, just radically reinterprets his tradition.

BTW- Everyone should check out the latest issue of Dharma Eye with Rev. Fujita' article.

Al

[acss1]

Jundo,

No problem. It certainly is controversial amongst hardcore Theravada Buddhist, but his approach is interesting none the less.

Al

[Jundo]

Will you let us know what you think when you have the chance?

I've had some interest in the book after reading the introduction, but I keep avoiding it; I'm not sure why, just out of intuition. But I read that opening again and some of his ideas seem kind of appropriate. For instance, he mentions being flexible, etc, in our practice; he also mentions things that I've been feeling a lot lately: for instance, my shikantaza is not the same as someone else's shikantaza; and even if it is the same, there's no way to know that it's the same; Dogen's way of expressing himself is not the same as Shunryu Suzuki; you and Taigu teach the same and differently, and isn't sitting like that, too?

I don't know, just rambling.

Gassho

All I have right now is an audio interview with Mr. Shiff.

I am afraid that all I am is a one trick pony, going radically and profoundly into non-seeking. It is very different from any form of meditation in which one is looking to get some pay-off. (That does not mean that we don't have a Wondrous payoff-non-payoff in our Shikantaza way ... only that we "get it" by giving up the constant hunt because the "payoff" is to be free of lack and need and division). Since there is nothing to get in our Practice, there is no way anything can be lacking in it ... when it is done right! (Cause if you experience that there is something lacking in it, I am afraid your mind is still chasing things!) So very different from the rest of life ... even from so many Buddhist techniques ... where one is chasing, trying to achieve, trying to get, running after, analyzing.

So, it is hard for me to comment on his various methods of Vipassana meditation and such, because ... while a wonderful path ... it is a tool and technique to get something, work some technique, analyze something. So, it is like asking a football coach (non-football in our case, because there is no GOAL! and we are all winners! ) about how to play tennis.

All I can say is that any doubt, confusion, judging, comparing and such going on about Zazen (or any aspect of life) in someone's head is .... going on in the head. Don't fall into that trap. I do like what he says in the interview about letting the sitting be.

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/08/bg-185-unlearning-meditation/

Gassho, Jundo ... One Trick Pony

[alan.r]

Thank you, Al, and you caused me to order Jason Siff's book.

Gassho, Jundo

Will you let us know what you think when you have the chance?

I've had some interest in the book after reading the introduction, but I keep avoiding it; I'm not sure why, just out of intuition. But I read that opening again and some of his ideas seem kind of appropriate. For instance, he mentions being flexible, etc, in our practice; he also mentions things that I've been feeling a lot lately: for instance, my shikantaza is not the same as someone else's shikantaza; and even if it is the same, there's no way to know that it's the same; Dogen's way of expressing himself is not the same as Shunryu Suzuki; you and Taigu teach the same and differently, and isn't sitting like that, too?

I don't know, just rambling.

Gassho

'jundo and I are not that popular with women seekers, and this for a good reason, we don t play the game of spiritual seduction and presents Zen as a living and boring tradition.'

It's maybe more complex than that Taigu. Thich Nhat Hahn has many female followers - but I think it's more to do with his deep aura of compassion than 'spiritual seduction'.

In the realm of spiritual seduction why would female seekers be more drawn in than male? I don't know the statistics but the numbers at these large followings seem to be pretty evenly split between male/female? The need to be spiritually seduced is not necessarily gender driven.

I recently came across a Mooji talk (had not heard of him before) and he does present as endearing in some way. Another safe port in the storm for troubled seekers - male and female alike?

We only ever really know by looking within ourselves whether we are being spiritually seduced. Even straight forward teaching can be received in a way that stems from a need within the receiver to be drawn in at a level that's askew in some way.

As a female student I can confirm that don't feel spiritually seduced by the message or the messengers here

Zen in all its simplicity, wonder and boredom is just simply presented at Tree Leaf - with nothing added and nothing taken away. I have a preference for this - even if, from time to time, I struggle with a directness of tone that might be misconstrued as a little harsh.

Gassho

Willow

As another lady here at Treeleaf, couldn't have said it any better myself, Willow!!

Ah, well, I can only speak for myself here. I"m an atheist, don't have any attachment to any kind of spiritual seduction so I guess that's why I feel comfortable here. I prefer living and boring, which is more in touch with reality and more practical to my practice.

edit...

Oops, my mistake, I was responding to this post
Originally Posted by Taigu

jundo and I are not that popular with women seekers, and this for a good reason, we don t play the game of spiritual seduction and presents Zen as a living and boring tradition.




ladies?

[Jundo]

Andy,

I'm new here, but with all do respect I would not throw Jason Siff's Unlearning Meditation into the lot of spiritual hucksters. Jason was monk in Sri Lanka and developed his approach based on the sutta's. It is certainly Buddist. Even Rev. Issho Fujita mentioned to me that he learned a lot from the book.

Having said that, it's not for me. Uchiyama's works are where my resonance resides and is why I think I'll have much to learn here at Treeleaf.

Gassho,

Al

Thank you, Al, and you caused me to order Jason Siff's book.

Gassho, Jundo

[acss1]

Andy,

I'm new here, but with all do respect I would not throw Jason Siff's Unlearning Meditation into the lot of spiritual hucksters. Jason was monk in Sri Lanka and developed his approach based on the sutta's. It is certainly Buddist. Even Rev. Issho Fujita mentioned to me that he learned a lot from the book.

Having said that, it's not for me. Uchiyama's works are where my resonance resides and is why I think I'll have much to learn here at Treeleaf.

Gassho,

Al

[Oheso]

Is it possible for an insincere teacher to parrot wisdom in such a way that it is helpful nonetheless?

nothing in this life escapes "Practice Time".- Jundo Sensei


if I understand what Jundo is saying, I'd guess the answer to be "yes". probability might be another matter? if the time is right, I think it
happens. there's that word again.

-Rob