My experiment: Counting 'Sticky' Thoughts

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

Thanks for that explanation. The problem is this. For a beginner like me, it is not easy to ignore and let thoughts come and go. I find that I easily grab onto thoughts and realize only after a while that I have been caught up. This is the most common scenario during my Zazen. The scenario of letting thoughts come and go is very rare. I don't know about Emmy but I think this is the most common case for all beginners. Getting caught up in loops of thoughts.

What is your advice for this case? When I realize, I'm getting caught up in a thought-stream, what do I do? Just sit with that? Or count breaths? Or do something else?

- Sam

Hi Sam,

Just realize and come back again and again, 10,000 times and 10,000 times. Continue for decades without worrying about it.

Uchiyama Roshi (already an old guy when he wrote this, sitting for decades) had the best visual diagram and explanation for this. He was more a "come back to the posture" guy, and I am more a "come back to just sitting like a mirror, with everything and nothing in particular" guy ... but it really makes little difference and is all the same.

If you have not read it before (or even if you have), Uchiyama has one of the most elegant "diagrams" of Shikantaza's way in his book "Opening the Hand of Thought". Lovely.

Please go here, find page 52, entitled "Waking Up To Life" (or as close as you can if that page is missing), and read to page 60 (about the diagram drawing on page 54) ... notice especially the part where he says "Zazen is not being glued to line ZZ'" (what I might call "returning to the clear, open, blue sky 10,00 times and 10,000 times again")

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=O4P9lrArrrcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Laundry constantly builds up. Do not seek to eliminate the laundry. One just does the laundry 10,000 times and 10,000 times again, until learning to pay the laundry no nevermind.

Gassho, J

[Daisho]

Hi Jundo, Joko Beck said that when her mind is busy, she listens to the traffic outside to help her mind to be still. That made me think of a way to still mine. For me silence is not without sound because I always here a slight "buzzing." It kind of reminds me of the early evening sounds in the country--the cicadas beginning to sing with a cricket or 2 thrown in! It"s not distracting and actually pleasant sound to go to sleep by. So, when my when I'm sitting and my mind is just babbling on, I just listen to this sound and when I'm doing that, I think of nothing else. Hopefully that"s an acceptable practice for sitting. Yes, I am just hearing things!

[Taigu]

Listening to sounds is Kannon's practice. I also do the same, traffic is great. Birds are great. Radiators are great.

Gassho


T.

[shikantazen]

Thank you Daisho, Taigu and Jundo.

Sam

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo, Joko Beck said that when her mind is busy, she listens to the traffic outside to help her mind to be still. That made me think of a way to still mine. For me silence is not without sound because I always here a slight "buzzing." It kind of reminds me of the early evening sounds in the country--the cicadas beginning to sing with a cricket or 2 thrown in! It"s not distracting and actually pleasant sound to go to sleep by. So, when my when I'm sitting and my mind is just babbling on, I just listen to this sound and when I'm doing that, I think of nothing else. Hopefully that"s an acceptable practice for sitting. Yes, I am just hearing things!

I would say that, so long as one is hearing without being attached to what one is hearing (i.e., not judging or running toward nor away from what one is hearing), forgetting the difference between hearer and heard, and without trying to quiet thoughts (rather, simply not being attached to thoughts that come and not playing their game) ... it is fine.

Gassho, J

[Kokuu]

I do not know Tejananda, the Dogzhen teacher who wrote that

Tejananda is an experienced teacher of Triratna (formerly the Western Buddhist Order) living in North Wales rather than a Dzogchen teacher. I did a week of retreat with him a couple of years back and he tends to work with just sitting practices that are, as Jundo says, similar to shikantaza although not identical. He has practiced a lot with Lama Shenpen (also in Wales) who does have a background in Dzogchen/Mahamudra and his teachings have more in common with that approach.

Gassho
Andy

[Joyo]

Jundo, thank you for the laundry post, that does make sense. I have a question, can pebble meditation be incorporated with shikantanza, especially for the beginner who has a mind that wanders and races so much? I have been reading a book by TNH and he explains pebble meditation beautifully, he talks about meditating on being a mountain, feeling solid, then space, feeling free (free from thoughts, worries, or laundry). Could this be a good start to zazen sitting or something to help quiet the mind during zazen?

Also, that book "Opening the Hand of Thought" would you recommend it for beginners? I am wanting to read some good books for beginners to Zen practice.

[alan.r]

Hi Sam,

I just wanted to second Jundo's recommendation of the Opening the Hand of Thought book, especially the diagrams on zazen - I think you'll find this helpful.

I also wanted to add that when I first began practicing (not necessarily zen at the time), I had a million questions as well, was dipping into this and that, etc, and frankly, I wasn't brave enough to ask anyone about it when I did have questions, or alternately, I was so stubborn as to believe I had it all figured out - so I just wanted to commend you on (and thank you for) that, on your openness and honesty and what is clearly a sincere motivation to practice well.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Jundo, thank you for the laundry post, that does make sense. I have a question, can pebble meditation be incorporated with shikantanza, especially for the beginner who has a mind that wanders and races so much? I have been reading a book by TNH and he explains pebble meditation beautifully, he talks about meditating on being a mountain, feeling solid, then space, feeling free (free from thoughts, worries, or laundry). Could this be a good start to zazen sitting or something to help quiet the mind during zazen?

Also, that book "Opening the Hand of Thought" would you recommend it for beginners? I am wanting to read some good books for beginners to Zen practice.

Hi Emmy,

I believe the below is the "pebble meditation" to which you refer. I would say that we do not sit in such way during Shikantaza Zazen on the cushion, when we just sit with "what is" in the way described in this thread ... no tools. We are clear mirrors, even reflecting the unclear times.

However, at other times of the day, if you want to try such a practice, please do! I would caution you, however, to not become dependent on the stone, and throw it away eventually.

I also say that our Zazen is not about needing to feel happy and peaceful (small "p") all the time. I wrote today on another thread ...

I do not emphasize [such practices] for our Zazen at Treeleaf, however, for the simple reason that our Zazen here (I feel) is not in need of tools or tranquilizers to "feel happy" during Zazen. Ours is more a joyful, vibrant equanimity ... a Joy so Joyous that it does not even crave to feel small human "happy happy happy" all the time to be happy!

In fact, Shikantaza is not about always needing or seeking to "feel happy", peaceful, blissful, etc.. (I might term it a kind of Greater Joy and Happiness about all of life in its richness and many colors, which includes sometimes feeling happy and joyous, sometimes sad, sometimes in between). So, we do not try or need to feel any particular way in our Zazen, and certainly do not run after sensations of peace, happiness, bliss (which we consider like candy ... we cannot eat sweet candy all the time, or get hooked on needed constant "sweetness", but must have a balanced diet which includes the not sweet vegetables!) During Zazen, we let all emotions drift from mind without clinging onto any of them. This is true both during Zazen, and in all of life, when we should not need to feel one way all the time, should take life as it comes in all its richness. To truly be at Peace (Big "P") means a Peace which embraces all of daily life, sometimes peaceful and sometimes not. There is a time for all ... sometimes candy, sometimes vegetables ... sometimes joy, sometimes tears ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10736-Smiling-Practice&p=104131&viewfull=1#post104131

Our Zazen is thus much more Powerful than simply a way to feel tranquilized and giddy all the time ... a True Joy that sweeps in all of life's banquet (though dropping away the "poison foods" of greed anger and ignorance).

So, Shikantaza folks are not big "stoners"!

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Opening the Hand of Thought is right at the top of the list for books we recommend for new folks. Here is the whole list ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?5711-SUGGESTED-BOOK-LIST-for-TREELEAF-SANGHA

Pebble Meditation-From A Pebble for Your Pocket by Thich Nhat Hanh

1) One Pebble
A Pebble for Your Pocket
Sometimes when we become angry during the day, it is difficult to remember to stop and breathe. I know a good way for you to remember to stop and breathe when you are angry or upset. First go for a walk and find a pebble that you like. Then, go sit near the Buddha, if there is one in your house, or outside under a special tree or on a special rock, or go to your room. With the pebble in your hand, say:

Dear Buddha,
Here is my pebble. I am going to practice with it when things go wrong in my day. Whenever I am angry or upset, I will take the pebble in my hand and breathe deeply. I will do this until I calm down.

Now put your pebble in your pocket and take it with you wherever you go. When something happens during the day that makes you unhappy, put your hand in your pocket, take hold of the pebble, breathe deeply, and say to yourself, “Breathing in, I know I am angry. Breathing out, I am taking good care of my anger.” Do this until you feel a lot better and can smile to your anger.

2) Four Pebbles
Place the four pebbles in front of you…
Pick up the first
I am fresh as a flower,
In, fresh,
Out flower (bell)
Put down the first, pick up the second
I am solid as a mountain
In solid, out mountain (bell)
Put down second, pick up the third
I am water reflecting
In water, out reflecting (bell)
I am free as the moon in space
In free, out space


3) Five Pebbles (excerpt from a dharma talk by Thay)
After you are sitting in the stable, beautiful position, then take out your little bag of five pebbles. It is very important to do it slowly, mindfully. You take each pebble one by one, just in front of your left knee. One, two, three, four, five. And you put the little empty bag next to them.

After you hear the sound of the bell, you begin to practice pebble meditation. It’s very beautiful practice. I love this practice. I breathe in, and I call the name of the person I love. If your mother is a person you love,
When you breathe in, you breathe deeply and call “Mommy!” Call her name in such a way that she becomes totally present, even if she is not there with you, even if she is in the kitchen, or in another city, or another town,
Or even if she is no longer there alive. She is with you in that moment. Call her name, deeply, with all your heart, and breathe in, and she is there with you, right away, very real, very deep. And when you breathe out, you say, “Here I am.”

[Joyo]

Thank you, Jundo. I'm not a stoner either I don't even do a formal sit-down pebble meditation or even use pebbles. I just repeat the words mountain/solid, for example, when my kids are testing my patience or some such thing. (so, as any parent can understand, I say mountain/solid about 500 times a day lol!!)

I actually took your advice today in regards to "laundry" and it made a huge difference. I cannot focus much on the clear blue sky, however, or my mind starts to race. Instead, I focus on breathing. I prefer the blue sky, I find it more peaceful and it just sweeps the mind of so many unnecessary things. However, I am new to this, so I guess I'll give it some time.

As for the book recommendations, thank you. Somehow I missed that post, but I definitely want to read them.

Gassho,
Emmy

[ZenHarmony]

Hi, Emmy!

I've just started "Opening the Hand of Thought" and it's just lovely, I'm learning so much from it.

Gassho,

Lisa

[shikantazen]

Hi Jundo/Taigu,

Dont want to open another thread on my below question so posting it here

Sometimes during sitting, I feel my palms (the mudra) get very heavy as if there is a very heavy object that is within (the air in) the palms. When I finish my sitting and lift my palms/hands, I can easily lift them though. Not sure what this is.

- Sam

[MyoHo]

Your breathing is not in harmony with your body. Just breathe normal but from the belly. No special techniques needed.

Hope it helps?

Gassho
Enkyo

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo/Taigu,

Dont want to open another thread on my below question so posting it here

Sometimes during sitting, I feel my palms (the mudra) get very heavy as if there is a very heavy object that is within (the air in) the palms. When I finish my sitting and lift my palms/hands, I can easily lift them though. Not sure what this is.

- Sam

Hi Sam,

I am not sure about Enkyo's advice on breathing in connection with the hands. It might be so, but I would tend to think it either a kind of illusion (because of the stillness and "sensory deprivation" of Zazen, we can just become very conscious of various sensations of the body we usually do not notice. For example, I sometimes have really felt my eartops tingling just because my attention is drawn there). Or, my other guess is that you are sitting in some way that you are holding your hand and arm muscles tight, and not relaxed, and they just grow tired and feel heavy. Is the Mudra resting in your lap ...



or are you holding it up in the air or against your chest somehow ...





Gassho, J

[Kokuu]

Sometimes during sitting, I feel my palms (the mudra) get very heavy as if there is a very heavy object that is within (the air in) the palms. When I finish my sitting and lift my palms/hands, I can easily lift them though. Not sure what this is.

Sam, I imagine our teachers will give you a more comprehensive reply but when we relax our limbs become heavy. This may be what you are experiencing. Do you feel the same in your legs too?

Gassho
Andy