what does this quote mean....

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

Yes, both true. We need the words spoken or written for transmission and recording and then to forget all of them.

And then to remember them again. Both silence and words are encountered in a new way in Enlightenment.

It is not that words are merely a tool and should be forgotten. Rather, Enlightenment is found to shine right through and as all words. It shines through small human silence too. Every word or scream of terror or silence is Silent and Preaching the Sutras at Once. All is Still even when moving for its life.

Such is vastly unlike our state prior to Enlightenment, when we may be prisoners of words, silence, noise, ideas, division and the whole catastrophe of life. Now, in Enlightenment, one embodies that the whole catastrophe is Buddha. Now we know the words and ideas, the beautiful and ugly, the whole catastrophe as Buddha.

For myself, that begs the question; "When do you really understand Zen?"Once you have crossed a river, you abandon the raft; you certainly don't carry it up the mountain

Actually, Master Dogen had an unusual view of the raft too. One did not put it down, and the very carrying is Enlightenment itself. This came up on another thread recently ...

Dogen wrote ...

The principle of zazen in other schools is to wait for enlightenment. For example, to practice is like crossing over a great ocean on a raft, thinking that having crossed the ocean one should discard the raft. The zazen of Buddha-ancestors is not like this, but is simply Buddha’s practice. We could say that the situation of Buddha’s house is the one in which the essence, practice, and expounding are one and the same. (Eihei Koroku, vol. 8:11)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10943-No-need-to-do-zazen-therefore-must-do-zazen&p=101485&viewfull=1#post101485

Perhaps we might say that the whole trip ... this shore, river, that shore ... is Buddha all along, and the trip keeps tripping.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Properly illuminated according to whom? Right words according to whom? To what?
Gassho

Hi,

One of those times when I get to say "Just Sit", find out for your "self" ... such is known when known.

[Jundo]

Perhaps.

But maybe best to study (what is written around here is a good start), then put the study down, turn off the computer and just sit.

Worst is simply to study and not sit. Sitting and not studying at all can also go off the rails for lack of direction.

But, at the end of the day, after all that ... when ya know ya know.

Gassho, J

[Jishin]

Properly illuminated according to whom? Right words according to whom? To what?
Gassho

Hi,

One of those times when I get to say "Just Sit", find out for your "self" ... such is known when known.

I been 'hit with a stick' before and told to just sit. Felt good. :-)

Gassho, John


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[Kokuu]

If you really understand Zen, you can use any book. You could use the Bible. You could use Alice in Wonderland. You could use the dictionary, because the sound of the rain needs no translation

That may be true for someone who really understands Zen but I am personally very grateful to all the translators who have made dharma texts available in English.
I get a lot from sitting but doubt that my sits or life would be so rich without some guiding words.

Once you 'get' Zen, you can probably see it in any book and no book. Until that point, there is a reason for having a suggested book list.

Gassho
Andy

[Joyo]

Hi Emmy,

Throw a book into the rain once in a while and listen to how you and the rain together make you and the book sing and talk. Or light a fire with it to get nice and warm in cold winter times.

Roshi is messing with you a bit I think? It’s a koan like quote to point out any attachments to the “translator you”. It’s just translating old words and translating is not the real you. If you say “Yes master you are right. Its useless” he will say you don’t get it because the translation of teachings is good and very important work. If you say “No what you say is not right” you prove you don’t get it either because it’s just the translation of some words and not the utter and complete unveiling of the secrets of the universe.

He probably is trying to show that everything teaches Zen, if your mindset is right. What do you want with translating all those words? Putting too much stock in the translation of things already said, is only Talking Zen and the recycling of things and moments already gone. A true student of the Way sees, hears and reeds Zen everywhere in everything in the right here right now. Teachings manifest themselves spontaneously in real life as practice opportunities and not from reading books in search for an answer to everything! When allways buried into the pages of a book, you will miss the rain falling or the wind making you/ the world dance to a music that can’t be heard. Lose the chance to have an intimate conversation over tea with a loved one. Translate books, not Zen itself. Don’t get lost in words. There are so many of them!

Well, that's my reflection on it anyway

Gassho

Enkyo

Lots of good stuff here, thanks everyone. I just wanted to comment on what Enkyo said, because after thinking about this quote for a long time, this is also the same conclusion I came to. I am a bookworm, I usually have 2 or 3 books that I am reading at once. Often to do with Zen Buddhism. I also like to listen to relaxing, Zen music. I am now starting to realize that perhaps putting the books away, turning the computer off, and living more in my life, this very present moment, can help my practice a lot. I watched Star Wars with my son the other day (I dislike Star Wars very much) but in that moment, I just sat there, no judgements, no labels, just sat and watched the show. Or I weed my garden, or make food for my children, or whatever, I'm beginning to see it all as Zen practice, not just the times that I am reading about zen, or even doing zazen meditation. For me, this is life-changing. Zen is not learned so much through intellect, as in doing away with the "junk" in my mind and just living, simply, in the moment.

Anyway, could say more, but on that note, my kids are hungry and I need to turn the computer off to live in the now.

Gassho,
Treena

[Amelia]

Thank you to all here who have used the stick on me.

[Jundo]

Lots of good stuff here, thanks everyone. I just wanted to comment on what Enkyo said, because after thinking about this quote for a long time, this is also the same conclusion I came to. I am a bookworm, I usually have 2 or 3 books that I am reading at once. Often to do with Zen Buddhism. I also like to listen to relaxing, Zen music. I am now starting to realize that perhaps putting the books away, turning the computer off, and living more in my life, this very present moment, can help my practice a lot. I watched Star Wars with my son the other day (I dislike Star Wars very much) but in that moment, I just sat there, no judgements, no labels, just sat and watched the show. Or I weed my garden, or make food for my children, or whatever, I'm beginning to see it all as Zen practice, not just the times that I am reading about zen, or even doing zazen meditation. For me, this is life-changing. Zen is not learned so much through intellect, as in doing away with the "junk" in my mind and just living, simply, in the moment.

Anyway, could say more, but on that note, my kids are hungry and I need to turn the computer off to live in the now.

Lovely! Yes! We are not prisoners of books, read in moderation for guidance and direction. Then, head to the cushion and into all of life. Weeding and hungry kids are where the Dharma rubber meets the road. Jedi Knights did not sit around just reading books about "the Force" and how to be a Jedi Knight.

Gassho, J

[Mp]

Jedi Knights did not sit around just reading books about "the Force" and how to be a Jedi Knight.

Brilliant Jundo!

Gassho
Shingen

[Jundo]

Brilliant Jundo!

Gassho
Shingen

No, I just stole that from Fugen.

MTFBWY, Jundo

[Mp]

No, I just stole that from Fugen.

MTFBWY, Jundo

*In a dark breathy voice* "Jundo, you are my Dharma brother"!

Gassho
Shingen