Brad Warner's new book on the notion of God

[Daitetsu]

I am currently reading the book. Very nice so far.

For those who don't know Brad's other books yet:
"Hardcore Zen" and "Sit Down And Shut Up" are best IMHO.
But that's my personal taste, of course...

Gassho,

Timo

[Dokan]

I concur with Hans. I've read all his books and feel this is his best so far. As another said, the less of Brad and more Zen seems to be appealing to me.

Gassho,

Dokan

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[Ryumon]

I've read about a third of the book so far. I bought the kindle edition to read on a trip this weekend - I'm currently on a train somewhere between York and London, or, more correctly, between here and there.

I think Brad is making a very big mistake in this book using the word god, as that word has very precise western connotations. He essentially describes a kensho experience as seeing god, whereas he simply had a glimpse of the ultimate.

I find it interesting to compare this with Ralph Waldo Emerson's description (in Nature) of how he became a "transparent eyeball.") Emerson who was at least a nominal believer in the Christian god in no way attributed this experience to seeing god. But Emerson did often espouse ideas that all of nature, and all the world, were god.

On short, I think Brad has latched onto a word he shouldn't be using, essentially because he's applying this word in a tradition that has no consistent history of using such a concept. He raises some interesting points, but I think he's off the mark.

[Hans]

Hello Kirk,

I can relate to what you are writing and on one hand feel that you are right, but then again I feel that Brad is right too...by which I mean that this really is a matter of perspective in some sense. It is true that the word God is charged with connotations about monotheist father figures etc.....on the other hand, the wonder and vastness and awe that arise in me sometimes and that Shikantaza helps me to notice more clearly cannot be fully expressed by using the words UNIVERSE, REALITY (referring to my own emotional and cognitive reactions of course). The only word in my own native language (which would be German) that opens up a panorama wide enough to contain this glorious openness is unfortunately "God".

So although I really don't like it when Brad write sentences that seem to generalise "Buddhism has this....Buddhism is that"....I think he does have a point.

Maybe if I had watched Carl Sagan's Cosmos repeatedly as a child, the word universe would cut it for me...but sometimes it just doesn't. Which doesn't mean I believe in a guy with a beard who likes some good smiting

For you personally it seems that the word "ultimate" covers it. For me it doesn't. "Mystery" gets my personal thumbs up too though.

But of course what is most important is our radically dropping words and concepts, see what's left and to then return to the market of our daily lives.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Ryumon]

But one must consider that there is nothing about that brain state that suggests that it is indeed God. He is merely describing his cultural bias on a brain state that neither he nor we know anything about. What if he had a seizure? Would he claimed that he was seeing God then as well?

[Ryumon]

By the way, about two years ago I described a similar experience in this post:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?p=57725#post57725

I find it very self-aggrandizing to think that the brain state that I felt there, which is probably similar to what Brad felt, is in any way God.

[Hans]

Hello Kirk,

it seems your ideas about who or what God means and/or connotes are different from how Brad feels about the term. And it also seems that Brad's view about the connotations of the term is closer to my own feelings and experience than yours, because I don't find it half as ill fitting as you seem to do.

Life and Death, seizures and orgasms, traffic accidents and tax statements. All that is reality, all that is Buddha nature unfolding. Any kind of awakening, whether BIG or small, or sudden or gradual never happens outside of this. For some people pivotal moments drive home this truth in a way that makes them want to call it something when talking about it. But never for one second did I think that Brad meant he was in any way chosen or privileged or special in the ways he experiences this life/universe(buddha nature/ reality.

For him the finger verbally pointing at the moon makes use of the term "God" rather than "reality" or "Buddha nature". On some days I can relate to that, and I don't believe in a personal God. Without doubt Brad would agree that filling in your tax forms is God too.



Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Daitetsu]

Actually, I wanted to wait with writing something until I have fiished the book (I am at 40% now).

However, I think Kirk has a point (although I perfectly understand Hans as well!). If Brad calls this God, then you could call me a believer, too. But I daresay the vast majority of people I know would not share Brad's definition of "God".
Yes, most people don't think of the old man with white beard on his throne any more, but still most people I know see god as a personal entity, with human like characteristics like loving, sometimes wrathful, etc.

I really see why Brad uses the term God, and I even can imagine that something like an impersonal God exists (so I am kind of agnostic here), but I also know that many people would disagree. And this can get problematic.
It reminds me of the early translations of the Tao Te Ching, in which the term "Tao" was translated as "God". This caused (and still causes) a lot of confusion for Western folks.
Why give IT a name anyway? "The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao", so why the bother?
Using a typical Western term/concept for this can (and will) confuse people.

Another problem (probably a bigger one) I see right now (perhaps Brad solves this in the rest of the book):
With his definitions he elevates "Satori/Kensho" even more! The Englightenment thing is already an obstacle that is big for lots of Zennies.
The Sotoish practice-enlightenment kind of eliminates a potential pressure here.

Equalling having kensho/satori with seeing God - man, this will drive some people nuts and want it all the more.

But again, maybe there is a solution in the rest of the book - there are still 60% to read...

Gassho,

Timo


PS: Don't get me wrong, I like the book very much so far, and I agree with lots of Brad's points. I just see these two problems right now.

[Juki]

I tend to agree with Hans in that Brad has gone out of his way in prior books to declare that he is not "enlightened" in the mystical sense of the word as it is often misused, and that his experiences are not special (and do not make him special).

I tend to agree with Kirk that the word "God" as very specific connotations in the western world, although this must be viewed in light of the fact that westerners are too hung up on concepts and on always attempting to explain and label things in ways that fit neatly within other concepts that they believe they already know and understand (ususally, mistakenly).

If you want to understand god, look in the mirror. Look at your mother or look deeply into the unhardened eyes of a child. Look at your cat. Look at a butterfly dancing across the air. Look at a forest or a single tree or a mountain lake.

If you want to understand Buddha nature, look at all those same things.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Checking in over a plate of spaghetti from Pittsburgh, PA and leaving for Cincinnati this evening. Deep bows to all.

Gassho,
William

[Risho]

ok... so total sidebar. lol I got my copy last night.. But at my local B&N (Barnes and Noble) what did I see on the shelf? You see, Buddhism is lumped together with "Eastern Religion" right next to New Age, so someone could be looking for a nice book on Dogen and accidentally pick up a book on magic crystals, not that there's anything wrong with that. hahhaha

Let's just say that the bookshelf is flooded with Thich Nhat Hanh and Pema Chodron stuff and sometimes you'll find golden nuggets like Red Pine's book on Bodhidharma or the Heart Sutra, a Stephen Batchelor or Shunryu Suzuki book, and sometimes if you're lucky a good book on Dogen. But what did I see? Dogen's Genjokoan: Three Commentaries!!!!! Holy crap, it was glorious

OK sorry about the sidenote, but I had to share that.

So far I've read the intro and I really liked what I've read.

From one perspective, I feel that any talk of God is purely speculative, but so in a sense is life. I mean we can only share a language because we perceive the world similarly, but a lot of what we "know" is speculative or based on belief. It's like that with practice too. The things described in Zen (in talks, teachings, etc) are foreign until one has undergone the practice for a time. If anything, I'm very excited about this book, the quest for God from the perspective of Zen practice. It gives me the same feeling as zazen. Even if zazen is tough or good or whatever that day, there is an element of receptivity and discovery an excitement to being able to do it.

Also, gotta love this line "I think it's fair to say that anything that calls itself Buddhism and doesn't involve some kind of meditation may not really be Buddhism." p viii

Gassho,

Risho

[chicanobudista]

I haven't read anything of his yet, besides his blog. Thanks for the clue, Hans.

His Hardcore Zen is best place to start.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

[Nenka]

Meanwhile, there's a good interview/podcast with Brad over at The Secular Buddhist: http://secularbuddhism.org/2013/06/1...ways-with-you/

[Joyo]

ok... so total sidebar. lol I got my copy last night.. But at my local B&N (Barnes and Noble) what did I see on the shelf? You see, Buddhism is lumped together with "Eastern Religion" right next to New Age, so someone could be looking for a nice book on Dogen and accidentally pick up a book on magic crystals, not that there's anything wrong with that. hahhaha


Gassho,

Risho

It's the same way where I live. There is a New Age store, in my town, and that is the only place to buy Buddha statues or Buddhist books here. I'm not into New Age, nothing against it, just not for me.

[Taigu]

Yes it is very enjoyable to read, witty and often spot on, the bit on enlightenment porn is really great.
Being myself sometimes into much heavier philosophy, I would say it is a good introduction to an old problem.
Of course, I don't want to use the word God to refer to reality/as it isness . I strongly feel the non- theistic nature of our practice. But again, that's just me and I don't care if my students believe or not in God or would use this word to name the ineffable.

Gassho


Taigu

[Nengyo]

I tried giving it a read, but I couldn't get into it at all. Maybe it's because I've read too many of Brad's books this year, or maybe it is the three huge tomes that are required reading for school that I know I should be reading, but either way I had to put it down about halfway through. I'll try again later.

For the record I really enjoyed Hard Core Zen, Shut Up and Sit, and Zen Wrapped in Karma and Subsequently Dipped in Chocolate (I'm guessing at the title of this one).