Split thread: Who avoids death in buddhism?

[Yugen]

Jundo,
That was beautiful, thank you. You have expressed what I have struggled to find words for. In describing the dance of life I find some of your own background as well as mine - Zorba the Greek (and Nikos Kazantzakis) would dance, laugh, cry, and live the theater of life out fully!

Gassho
Yugen

Gassho
Yugen

[Daitetsu]

Hi Jundo,

Thanks a lot for your post! I am glad you teach "the whole thing".

I personally like TNH's approach in "No Death, No Fear" and the wave/ocean analogy (which one can also find in philosophical Taoism interestingly).
The best way to express this is through analogies, metaphors and poetry, I guess...

When my grandma died my little daugther asked me what happened to her. I told her that now my grandma is air, clouds, rain, water, dust, etc. And my daughter liked that idea.
When she is bigger, more questions will come, I'm sure...

I just remembered the old story:

The Emperor asked Master Gudo, "What happens to a man of enlightenment after death?" "How should I know?" replied Gudo.
"Because you are a master," answered the Emperor.
"Yes sir," said Gudo, "but not a dead one."

Unfortunately, many people don't like "dunnos". So let's keep to poetry (what a pity I'm no poet).

Gassho,

Timo

[Nameless]

That was truly beautiful Jundo. Death is not something to be feared. I love that life is a dream that is meant to be dreamt line. Really hits the point home because I've often wondered if everything's an illusion, then why does anything matter? But it is meant to be accepted and experienced, like all things in our lives.

Gassho,
John

[RichardH]

Thank you for clarifying Jundo. It clarifies my heartfelt dissension.

I understand Mahayana to be not picking Nirvana over Samsara, as realizing that emptiness is not other than form, as not giving the “absolute” primacy over the “relative”, since they are “not two”. I understand that Mahayana is realization of no birth and no death while not denying death at face value. ..and what is the "face value"? Everything called “I” “me” and “mine”, Body and mind, “inside”, “outside”, “heaven” and “earth” , is impermanent, ...and that only in that, respectful of grief and loss, is the genuine taste of no birth and no death. This life is ephemeral and impermanent, dreamlike, but it is not so in contradistinction to something else that isn't. It is in the very ephemeral impermanence of this “dream” that no birth and no death is realized. That is my broken heart and true home, free of birth and death, while completely being born and completely dying.

So I respectfully disagree with what you are teaching. Deep bows.

Gassho, Richard.

[Mp]

Yes beautiful Jundo, thank you.

Gassho
Shingen

[Jundo]

Thank you for clarifying Jundo. It clarifies my heartfelt dissension.

I understand Mahayana to be not picking Nirvana over Samsara, as realizing that emptiness is not other than form, as not giving the “absolute” primacy over the “relative”, since they are “not two”. I understand that Mahayana is realization of no birth and no death while not denying death at face value. ..and what is the "face value"? Everything called “I” “me” and “mine”, Body and mind, “inside”, “outside”, “heaven” and “earth” , is impermanent, ...and that only in that, respectful of grief and loss, is the genuine taste of no birth and no death. This life is ephemeral and impermanent, dreamlike, but it is not so in contradistinction to something else that isn't. It is in the very ephemeral impermanence of this “dream” that no birth and no death is realized. That is my broken heart and true home, free of birth and death, while completely being born and completely dying.

So I respectfully disagree with what you are teaching. Deep bows.

Gassho, Richard.

That is interesting, because I do not disagree a bit with what you are teaching here, and Practice this too right 100% to the marrow. Deep bows, Richard.

Everything in impermanent, and grief and loss is the very taste of no birth and no death. There is no "contradistinction" to something else ... and so when living, there is only living. When dying, there is nothing but dying. In grief and loss, fully grieve and rend your clothes and cry your broken heart out. As Dogen said,

it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.

Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.

When the spring, or when falling into "Yellow Springs", there is nothing else, and all present right here.

On the other hand (Zen folks always speak out of both side of the no sided mouth ... and reality is both and neither "either/or" at once) THERE IS 100% such "contradistinction" too ... a realm where all divisions ... birth/death, spring/winter, Dogen/Richard, fire/ice are washed away as the swirling waters. A Heart which cannot be broken into pieces or loss in its Wholeness. It is a cleansing so thorough that there is no "contradistinction" for no "two" to be "contra"!

All so at once, each the other ... and each thoroughly just so to the total exclusion of the other ... no other.

Even the "ocean" of which I spoke is impermanence itself, for it is in such constant motion that such is never still ... and even ice, though seeming to our eyes as solid, is always flowing and changing. There is truly no "ocean" there to be nailed down in its swirling impermanence. Nonetheless, ice is cold and water wet.

When in Spring live gently in Spring, when the Winter die shivering in Winter (there is no other time or timeless in "contradistinction" to just this) ... and know What is Timeless & Undivided too, beyond all "contradistinction".

No "contradistinction" between and through all the "contradistinctions".

Gassho, J

[alan.r]

That is interesting, because I do not disagree a bit with what you are teaching here, and Practice this too right 100% to the marrow. Deep bows, Richard.

Everything in impermanent, and grief and loss is the very taste of no birth and no death. There is no "contradistinction" to something else ... and so when living, there is only living. When dying, there is nothing but dying. In grief and loss, fully grieve and rend your clothes and cry your broken heart out. As Dogen said,

it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.

Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.

When the spring, or when falling into "Yellow Springs", there is nothing else, and all present right here.

On the other hand (Zen folks always speak out of both side of the no sided mouth ... and reality is both and neither "either/or" at once) THERE IS 100% such "contradistinction" too ... a realm where all divisions ... birth/death, spring/winter, Dogen/Richard, fire/ice are washed away as the swirling waters. A Heart which cannot be broken into pieces or loss in its Wholeness. It is a cleansing so thorough that there is no "contradistinction" for no "two" to be "contra"!

All so at once, each the other ... and each thoroughly just so to the total exclusion of the other ... no other.

Even the "ocean" of which I spoke is impermanence itself, for it is in such constant motion that such is never still ... and even ice, though seeming to our eyes as solid, is always flowing and changing. There is truly no "ocean" there to be nailed down in its swirling impermanence. Nonetheless, ice is cold and water wet.

When in Spring live gently in Spring, when the Winter die shivering in Winter (there is no other time or timeless in "contradistinction" to just this) ... and know What is Timeless & Undivided too, beyond all "contradistinction".

No "contradistinction" between and through all the "contradistinctions".

Gassho, J

I just want to say how much I appreciate this thread. Also, bringing in Genjo-koan here, something I've been (trying to) deeply study, it illuminates a lot. Thank you everybody.

Gassho,
a

[Rich]

When someone near me suffers the death of a loved one, there are a few things I can do: I can offer a hug, a hand to hold, a shoulder to cry on, an ear to listen. I may offer support by attending the funeral. I might send flowers or a card, or make a donation.

There are a range of things I might say to offer comfort: I might tell a grieving person that a loved one "went to Heaven" or "a better place". I might offer that the deceased is "still nearby", in the clouds and rain and trees. Within Buddhism specifically, I might speak of "merging into Buddha" or "going to the Pure Land" or "heading for a better rebirth". Some Buddhists believe in such things and some do not.

I might offer such possibilities whether or not I personally believe in some particular interpretation (I feel some more likely than others), because the point is to offer comfort and possibility ... and is not about me and my personal belief. (I encountered this many times in the hospice where I worked, when a patient or family member asked me "where" I thought people "go". It happened when my child asked me about a pet that died, and I wanted to offer something that a child might understand. I spoke to offer comfort to them, not to express my opinion).

Anyway, I believe that expressions such as "going to Heaven" or "to the Pure Land" or "found in the clouds" or "heading for a rebirth" each represent something quite possible (I close my mind to no possibility) and, further, each expresses a true longing in the human heart.

Gassho, J

Thanks Jundo. Doing some of things you mention above to help a situation is true Mahayana Buddhism.

[RichardH]

That is interesting, because I do not disagree a bit with what you are teaching here, and Practice this too right 100% to the marrow. Deep bows, Richard.

Everything in impermanent, and grief and loss is the very taste of no birth and no death. There is no "contradistinction" to something else ... and so when living, there is only living. When dying, there is nothing but dying. In grief and loss, fully grieve and rend your clothes and cry your broken heart out. As Dogen said,

it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.

Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.

When the spring, or when falling into "Yellow Springs", there is nothing else, and all present right here.

On the other hand (Zen folks always speak out of both side of the no sided mouth ... and reality is both and neither "either/or" at once) THERE IS 100% such "contradistinction" too ... a realm where all divisions ... birth/death, spring/winter, Dogen/Richard, fire/ice are washed away as the swirling waters. A Heart which cannot be broken into pieces or loss in its Wholeness. It is a cleansing so thorough that there is no "contradistinction" for no "two" to be "contra"!

All so at once, each the other ... and each thoroughly just so to the total exclusion of the other ... no other.

Even the "ocean" of which I spoke is impermanence itself, for it is in such constant motion that such is never still ... and even ice, though seeming to our eyes as solid, is always flowing and changing. There is truly no "ocean" there to be nailed down in its swirling impermanence. Nonetheless, ice is cold and water wet.

When in Spring live gently in Spring, when the Winter die shivering in Winter (there is no other time or timeless in "contradistinction" to just this) ... and know What is Timeless & Undivided too, beyond all "contradistinction".

No "contradistinction" between and through all the "contradistinctions".

Gassho, J

I hope I am not coming across as presuming to teach.. I mean I am a "teacher" like everyone else, but so is a traffic jam. I also do not imagine you are missing some realization or understanding. You are the teacher after all, and I also feel I know you.

It is something else that has maybe been stuck in my craw (whatever a craw is)... and it has to do with language, and how words are picked up. My own history with how words are picked and my sense how they are being picked up by others. I'll try and articulate it here in the next day or so .

Thank you. Gassho

[RichardH]

Hi Jundo

On the other hand (Zen folks always speak out of both side of the no sided mouth ... and reality is both and neither "either/or" at once) THERE IS 100% such "contradistinction" too ... a realm where all divisions ... birth/death, spring/winter, Dogen/Richard, fire/ice are washed away as the swirling waters. A Heart which cannot be broken into pieces or loss in its Wholeness. It is a cleansing so thorough that there is no "contradistinction" for no "two" to be "contra"!

Ok. So Zen teachings have always been conveyed without attachment to any particular skillful means. Zen teachers will use positive language or negative language... or maybe whatever language comes in the moment without any thought of it being either. In some traditions it can even be a kick or a shout. The point is to wake people to their true nature. Is that a fair understanding?


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You held up my post and asked "Who the Hell avoids death?" My answer is ..all of us, me.. even you.

The reason I came to Buddhism was because unlike other religious traditions I grew up with and explored , including some non-traditional ones, Buddhism spoke directly to my experience in an uncompromising way. It did not play to my wishes and hopes. It did not bow to what I wanted life to be. Buddhist teachings said if I turn around and embrace what I am running from, if I am willing to be in the last place I want to be, I will realize my innate freedom. It was summed up at the time by the title of that wonderful book by Trungpa .. “The wisdom of no escape”.

I was recently at a funeral with family and friends. The talk was of Aunt Marie looking down upon us from heaven. The feeling in the room was that a limb had been cut off, but people wanted comfort and hope. My son, Will, who is slightly autistic and not always socially appropriate, looked very uncomfortable viewing Marie, made up in lipstick with color applied to her cheeks. She was asleep, not dead, because there is no death... really. I asked if he was ok, and he got angry saying loudly “No I'm not OK, I'm just inches from a dead corpse!” . It really was like burping in the church, and people were upset by it. Later, Marie's daughter said that she just had to believe her mother lived on in heaven, because it was the only way she could cope. Obviously I can only say “of course she is heaven” . That is not being Mahayana. It is just not being a total dick. What else am I going to say? But later a teenager asked me what I really thought, and I just spoke the basic view that body, mind, and world, heaven and earth, are impermanent, and in deeply accepting that, there is a deeper ineffable realization . This teen was was not put off all, and she seemed to appreciate being talked to honestly instead of wishfully.

We are so primed to seize on any shred of HOPE, not realizing that it is a millstone. It reminds me of the direct instruction for release hidden in plain sight at the entrance to Dante's Hells “ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE “ . It is the last thing we want to do. Any message that suggests in some infinitely subtle way that some “spiritual” part of “me” is timeless.. and ever free of birth and death, will be seized upon with every drive in this body and mind. That is my experience, and it is what I see others do, naturally, all the time. I also believe people who come to Buddhism deserve the same credit as that teenager for seeing things at “face value”, and that talk of illusion misses that chance, instead feeding that shred of hope. That is the best I can explain misgiving with talk of "illusion" right now.

Gassho Daizan/Richard

[Myosha]

While 'tossing' life and death around my rescuer became "Big" Suzuki. The near centinarian was asked his reaction to death. He laughed saying, "Life and death is one thing."
With gratitude,

Gassho,
Edward

[Jinyo]

Richard,



I am putting together my thoughts on this.

Willow

[Jundo]

Ok. So Zen teachings have always been conveyed without attachment to any particular skillful means. Zen teachers will use positive language or negative language... or maybe whatever language comes in the moment without any thought of it being either. In some traditions it can even be a kick or a shout. The point is to wake people to their true nature. Is that a fair understanding?

Hi Rich,

Yes, the point is to wake people to their True Nature because people are suffering.

A facet of that True Nature to which to "wake people" is that there are no "people" to wake up, no waking, thus no suffering.

I sometimes prefer to say "True Natures" because, while a single Jewel, there are many facets.

The reason I came to Buddhism was because unlike other religious traditions I grew up with and explored , including some non-traditional ones, Buddhism spoke directly to my experience in an uncompromising way. It did not play to my wishes and hopes. It did not bow to what I wanted life to be. Buddhist teachings said if I turn around and embrace what I am running from, if I am willing to be in the last place I want to be, I will realize my innate freedom. It was summed up at the time by the title of that wonderful book by Trungpa .. “The wisdom of no escape”

Yes, Buddhist Practice instructs me that there is no escape from death, and prepares me to charge right into it (when the time comes ... no need to rush things either! ).

On the other hand, Buddhist Practice instructs me that death is scary, heart breaking, tragic, grief filled ... the loss of all we have and love. I fall crying and screaming right into the heart of all that too. I am afraid and broken hearted.

On yet another hand (Buddha has many hands! ) Buddhist Practice also instructs me (in the Mahayana Version) that birth and death are something of a dream. It is really not rocket science. Simply stop measuring and dividing "Richard" from "Reality", "Richard" from "Buddha" from "Not Richard", cutting up "starts" from "finishes". No need even for the words "Richard" or "Reality" or "Buddha", "Richard" or "Not Richard", "Birth" or "Death", "Start" or "Finish", "Change" or "No Change", "Permanent" or "Impermanent", "Moving" or "Standing Still". What then? I cannot "fall" or "not fall" for there is and is not no "there" to jump or fall to, no "I" ever standing or not standing "apart", no something to "fear", no "heart to break"or not break. Buddha.

Maybe that is the end of self awareness, maybe there is more. Maybe I end up in some bizarre "Bardo" realm like Trungpa and many Tibetans describe in fantastical and painful (sometimes literally painful) detail ... maybe I end up with Jesus, maybe with Allah, maybe nothing at all.

http://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Book-Dead-Liberation-Shambhala/dp/1570627479

Personally, I tend to feel that "Bardo" and "Pure Lands" and "Pearly Gates" are "Bullshit" if taken too literally. But actually I am not so concerned, content to go where one goes ... or does not go, flowing to heaven or hell or everywhere or no where at all. Content to be going or not going with the flowing ... because one -IS- the flowing all along.

It is not complicated.

Gassho, J

PS - I can't help it if some students only "get" ... or are attracted too ... one or two of the many facets of True Natures. A Zen Teacher can employ all those skillful means and Koans to get the points across, but some folks are just too blind or thick. That is why it is called "Ignorance". Or maybe their own personal Karma or psychological make-up just makes them deaf to it ... or maybe they just require some other way of seeing to suit their temper or needs. That's fine. But to me ... it is not complicated.

[arthus]

Thank for the words Sensei.

Life is the manifestation of all functions,
Death is the manifestation of all functions.

Quite.
My thoughts are with you all friends,
As is any help I can provide.

Gassho,
arthus

[Jundo]

By the way ... what I wrote above is basic Mahayana/Zen Buddha Dharma 101 ... basic Teachings.

But, of course, our way is not merely to talk about such. A little talking is necessary to prepare us for what is to be encountered, a kind of road map for the lay of the land, but much more vital is REALIZING in the bones and REALIZING (bringing to life) in one's life.

And how is that accomplished?

Why, Koans, of course, Dharma Talk, Chanting this or that, Bowing ... but most vitally ... by living and just sitting Zazen.

Gassho, J