'GENJO KOAN': Off to the races ...

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 39454

    'GENJO KOAN': Off to the races ...

    Hi,

    Just a note to say that, over on the 'Leaf' blog. I've started daily talks on the 'Genjo Koan' of Master Dogen's Shobogenzo ... Please join me.

    http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/2007/12 ... oan-i.html

    I'll keep going, day by day, and all reality is revealed! :-)

    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Gregor
    Member
    • Apr 2007
    • 638

    #2
    It starts . . . kewl.
    Jukai '09 Dharma Name: Shinko 慎重(Prudent Calm)

    Comment

    • shikantaza

      #3
      Hi Jundo,

      I'm really enjoying the talks so far. I just wondered what it is that you don't like about the wave / ocean analogy for self / noself. Is it too simplistsic?

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 39454

        #4
        Originally posted by shikantaza
        Hi Jundo,

        I'm really enjoying the talks so far. I just wondered what it is that you don't like about the wave / ocean analogy for self / noself. Is it too simplistsic?
        Hi Shik,

        Thank you for this question very much ...

        I have a problem with the "ocean" portion of the analogy. It is much the same problem I have when someone tells me that "ultimate reality" is an old man with flowing robes and a long white beard named Jehovah or a meaningless cluster of protons, neutrons and electrons. The image or name limits and fixes our conception of that ultimate reality beyond what I believe is present human understanding (just as in the case of some anthropomorphic image like "old man", so does the nature image of an "ocean" leave us with a defined image), when the truth of what is our "ultimate source" may be nothing like that at all. In my view, the word "Ocean" conveys an image of some unbroken, homogeneous, characterless, flowing thing, I believe, when reality may be that or something completely different.

        Look, I like to say that I feel "at one" with the universe, not because it is necessarily "one, unbroken, characterless thing", but because I am in it, and wholly with it, whatever it is. Thus, I am "at one" with it even if it is two, three, zero or something beyond our conception altogether. I place few demands up it. Suppose that, instead of "ultimate reality" being an "ocean", it is more like a "salad" (with me as one of the tomatoes) or a Cosmic Anus with me as a fart, or a Chevrolet with me as a bolt on a front tire ... I am still one with it. Got my point?

        One reason I chose the "Tree" image for "Treeleaf" (with you and me as individual leaves which, from another perspective, are just the tree itself) is because it captures some of the wild, organic image of this universe in which we live. However, it implies little about from where the roots arise or where, if anywhere, it is growing to ... I once once wrote this about the Tree image:

        ... Where it came from and how long it has grown ... no one knows for sure. Perhaps it has always been. Did it emerge by accident? For a reason (perhaps no reason, or a reason little to do with us, not graspable by us)? ... From where did this tree spring? Has it ever, always existed, sufficient and complete unto itself, or is there some prior, wondrous seed and soil ... and a gardener's hand ... by which it first came forth?

        For me, the answer is not so pressing ... where the tree goes, there I go. To ask the 'meaning of life' may be to ask 'why does a tree grow'? It is enough for me that the tree is here, in all its complexity, canopy spreading and fruitful, source of life. It may not exist for a reason, it may just 'be', but we are part of it, are it, leaves of the tree.


        Anyway, I do not know if that is much of an improvement on the "oceran" image, but I was trying.

        Did that answer your question?

        Gassho, Jundo
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • shikantaza

          #5
          Hi Jundo,

          Thank you for your answer. I suppose the problem with any analogy is that we are trying to make reality fit into a neat little conceptual box. Probably better for me to sit a little more and experience reality, rather than try to conceptualise it too much! Again, thanks for your time.

          Comment

          • Jarkko
            Member
            • Oct 2007
            • 58

            #6
            Hello

            Thank you for the Genjo koan teaching. it was very usefull to me. I have been intrested that indras net thing. it just got me thinking that how easily we can see it for example in our social life. what myself is for others thats what i see in others. reflecting "good" and "bad" from everywhere. so is that the suffering that we are having?

            Merry christmas everyone!


            Gassho

            Jarkko

            Comment

            • will
              Member
              • Jun 2007
              • 2331

              #7
              I have a problem with the "ocean" portion of the analogy. It is much the same problem I have when someone tells me that "ultimate reality" is an old man with flowing robes and a long white beard named Jehovah or a meaningless cluster of protons, neutrons and electrons. The image or name limits and fixes our conception of that ultimate reality beyond what I believe is present human understanding (just as in the case of some anthropomorphic image like "old man", so does the nature image of an "ocean" leave us with a defined image), when the truth of what is our "ultimate source" may be nothing like that at all. In my view, the word "Ocean" conveys an image of some unbroken, homogeneous, characterless, flowing thing, I believe, when reality may be that or something completely different.
              Good answer.

              Gassho Will
              [size=85:z6oilzbt]
              To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
              To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
              To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
              To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
              [/size:z6oilzbt]

              Comment

              • Gregor
                Member
                • Apr 2007
                • 638

                #8
                I like the Ocean / Wave analogy myself . . . you know the one that represents man's sense of self, the wave thinking it is separate from the ocean, but in reality both are just the water.

                So . . . I don't really see much conflict between what Jundo is are saying about being in and wholly with the world.

                I don't mean to split hairs, just stating that I find the analogy to be useful.

                take care,

                Greg
                Jukai '09 Dharma Name: Shinko 慎重(Prudent Calm)

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 39454

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Gregor
                  I like the Ocean / Wave analogy myself . . . you know the one that represents man's sense of self, the wave thinking it is separate from the ocean, but in reality both are just the water.

                  So . . . I don't really see much conflict between what Jundo is are saying about being in and wholly with the world.

                  I don't mean to split hairs, just stating that I find the analogy to be useful.

                  take care,

                  Greg
                  Well, I like the wave part too, just not the ocean!!!!!

                  But, yes, it is splitting hairs, so let's forget the whole thing and just go to the beach (at least, we who are here in Florida).

                  Vacation Gassho, Jundo
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Laura
                    Member
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 14

                    #10
                    hello and Gassho,

                    I am having a hard time finding all of the parts to this series so I can catch up. Is there a page somewhere that shows just links to this series, or is it possible for someone to point me toward each part? This thread might be a good place to post links to each one.

                    Thanks in advance!

                    _/|_

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 39454

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Laura
                      hello and Gassho,

                      I am having a hard time finding all of the parts to this series so I can catch up. Is there a page somewhere that shows just links to this series, or is it possible for someone to point me toward each part? This thread might be a good place to post links to each one.

                      Thanks in advance!

                      _/|_
                      Hi Laura, and very merry 'welcome' again ...

                      It was just about a passing remark I made on the daily netcast Zazen sitting concerning some hesitancy I have with the 'ocean' part of the 'ocean/wave' analogy ...

                      http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/2007/12 ... n-iii.html

                      That's part of the whole series of talks I started doing about the 'Genjo Koan' last week.

                      Gassho, Jundo
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Laura
                        Member
                        • Dec 2007
                        • 14

                        #12
                        Hi Jundo, and thank you.

                        I am sorry my question was not clear. I was looking for links to the other parts of the Genjo Koan series.

                        Thanks again!

                        _/|_

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 39454

                          #13
                          Hi Laura,

                          I hope you are having a restful holiday.

                          The rest of the Genjo Koan is there (actually, we were just getting started). Just jump back and forward a few days on the blog. In fact, I dropped the topic for a few days due to the holidays, and will get back to it tonight.

                          Gassho, Jundo
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Laura
                            Member
                            • Dec 2007
                            • 14

                            #14
                            Thanks, I will find the rest of them

                            Comment

                            • Jundo
                              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 39454

                              #15
                              I rewrote a bit the introduction to today's netcast talk on ...

                              Though all this may be true, flowers fall even if we love them,
                              and weeds grow even if we hate them,
                              and that is all.


                              I think the new way captures the intent better ...

                              http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/2007/12 ... n-vii.html

                              It now says ...


                              We have encountered several "simultaneously true" perspectives of Master Dogen which vanquish suffering (and in coming sections of Genjo Koan and Shobogenzo, we will encounter countless more)...

                              ... the separate, abiding 'self' is, is not, absolutely is just-as-it-is, etc.etc. ...

                              By these simultaneous perspectives, and others, we find no grounds to resist in life. But still, notes Master Dogen ...

                              Though all this may be true, flowers fall even if we love them,
                              and weeds grow even if we hate them,
                              and that is all.


                              Life is a time to laugh, time to weep, to everything a season. Each in its own time, says the old book.

                              And All is One, adds the Zen teacher. Through a many-layered view of things, each time holds all others, is-not and just-is too: Beyond tears and smiles, in abiding Peace, a tear rolls down Master Dogen's cheek. Old Buddhas smile and Old Buddhas cry.
                              Gassho, J
                              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                              Comment

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