What's wrong with Spacing out?

[shikantazen]

There are schools in Soto Zen that follow the anapanasati sutta without making it obvious and calling it shikantaza. I think Suzuki Roshi, Katagiri Roshi school is the main one. Nonin studied under Katagiri and he teaches the same. I don't feel this is true shikantaza though

[Taigu]

Add the Deshimaru school, Shikantazen...

I will take the time to answer your question in a video and thank you for your patience with the not so good old Taigu.

gassho


T.

[Jundo]

There are schools in Soto Zen that follow the anapanasati sutta without making it obvious and calling it shikantaza. I think Suzuki Roshi, Katagiri Roshi school is the main one. Nonin studied under Katagiri and he teaches the same....

Add the Deshimaru school, Shikantazen...

Interesting. But are they truly following the way of the Anapanasati Sutta ...

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. [3] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body, and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. [4] He trains himself to breathe in calming the bodily processes, and to breathe out calming the bodily processes.

"[5] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to rapture, and to breathe out sensitive to rapture. [6] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to pleasure, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure. [7] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to mental processes, and to breathe out sensitive to mental processes. [8] He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes.

"[9] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind. [10] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind. [11] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind. [12] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind.

"[13] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy. [14] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading], and to breathe out focusing on dispassion. [15] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation. [16] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment.

etc. etc.

... or are they just following the breath while sitting Shikantaza, which is not really like the above?


Gassho, J

[shikantazen]

Thanks Taigu. I thought you were pissed off on me for asking too many questions.

May be you are. Who cant be with my questions. lol.

Jundo already wagged his finger at me with his video.

[Jinyo]

Thank you Jundo for the detailed answer (and for your thoughts Andy).

I have ordered the book you mention Jundo because it looks interesting and I think it will help me to unravel some of the snags in my mind.

Back to your explanation - I feel a lot clearer now that breath mindfulness and the four foundations of mindfulness have a different emphasis to shikantaza as taught by Dogen. Hahn's book 'transformation and healing' is quite different to most of his writing. As you say - based on the sutra - it is very technical/goal orientated and I can really see now how John Kabat Zinn has stripped it all down so that it can be presented to a secular audience seeking stress relief. This is not a criticism of the literature - it's just I prefer to know where a method/practice is rooted historically.

I think the above has a lot of good application - and maybe it's a road to travel in order to embrace emptiness - but there's a sort of cerebral aspect (paradoxically a lot of thinking/mental effort involved in coming to an understanding of what is being presented) which (I feel) doesn't help in just 'sitting' as taught here.

I don't know enough about Katagiri, Nonin, or Deshimaru to comment - but what you say about their maybe 'just following the breath while sitting Shikantaza' feels intuitively right.

I do like to read about these other approaches - there's a lot of value in it - but when it comes to practice I definitely gravitate towards Shikantaza and the Soto school.

Wherever the heart takes us,



Willow

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo for the detailed answer (and for your thoughts Andy).

I have ordered the book you mention Jundo because it looks interesting and I think it will help me to unravel some of the snags in my mind.

Hi Willow,

I was not really recommending the book except to real "Buddhism Comes West" history buffs. The author has a way of saying in 50 pages what he might say in 5, so perhaps skim it. It is interesting in emphasizing how certain aspects of modern Buddhism in the West might be a change, or a new emphasis, from traditional Zen and Buddhism teachings ... such as the "self help" aspect, the "Zen is about walking one's own way free of authority" aspect, the "be present in the moment" emphasis and some other things.

These things are present back in Asian Buddhism and Zen, but not nearly as much as in Western Buddhism/Zen.

Gassho, J