Labeling thoughts.

[Andrea1974]

It seems that an effective way to disidentify with superfluous thoughts is to label them (admittedly, I have never tried it). For those of you that (just like me) are relatively new to Zen practice (but as Jundo says “we are all beginners”) here is a nice paragraph from the zencenterofportland website (http://zencenterofportland.org/html_...o_sitting.html)

“One way to work with the thoughts we have is to label them. This helps us to disidentify from them, to start to see them as just thoughts, not necessarily the truth. Labeling helps us to notice our thought patterns and that we take our thoughts for the truth, ("He can't be trusted because he hurt me"). It is a good idea to "label" your thoughts when you notice that you are just thinking ("Thought arising about such-and-such”). Make the label just a one or two word description of the thought, for instance “Thought arising about work,” or “Thought arising about Mary,” or "Thought arising about not doing this practice well." Labeling the thought helps you to step back from the actual thinking, to disengage from the thinking, to not take it for the truth, to see it as just thinking. It helps us to know that we have been thinking and gives us a little space to consider where next to bring our attention. When your mind wanders, bring your attention very gently back to the body, the breath, and sounds, like a butterfly gently coming back to light on the breath. You will do this over and over, bringing your attention to the moment, to the bodily sensations, the breath and the sounds, and labeling you thoughts when you become distracted or caught up in them. When our discursive mind, the Me-mind starts to think and we get caught up in our thinking, our judging, our criticism, our fear, our anger, and desire, we move out of the present moment into a story, a narrative, a movie-like thinking world that usually is set in the past or future. Over time we can notice that we are caught up in this thinking, narrative movie, and then we are able to more and more quickly return to the experiential life. We are also able to remain in the experiential world for longer periods without the Me-mind taking over. Over time we spend more and more time in the experiential realm and not so much in the thinking realm. In other words, we want to be living rather than thinking about our lives.”

Language has its limitations, especially when it comes to describing concepts like these but isn’t this “noticing” just another thought? This implies discriminating between “good” thoughts and “bad” thoughts, between a small self that “just thinks” and a bigger self that recognize this useless thinking. Is there such a distinction? What do you think? (See? I cannot get away from this word )

“Labeling the thought helps you to step back from the actual thinking, to disengage from the thinking, to not take it for the truth, to see it as just thinking. It helps us to know that we have been thinking and gives us a little space to consider where next to bring our attention.”

I love the use of the word SEE here. “Seeing” is a spontaneous recognition of what is, rather than its mental representation.

“Over time we spend more and more time in the experiential realm and not so much in the thinking realm. In other words, we want to be living rather than thinking about our lives.”

Beautifully stated! There is still “thinking” in this “experiential realm” but it is more fluid, more grounded in reality, and not initiated by fear, anger and greed. I can SEE that.

For the longest time questions like these have been bothering me, mostly because there is no amount of reasoning that would provide a decent answer. I had (and partially still do) some sort of an addiction to thinking about thinking. Fortunately, Zazen helped to recognize that the the answer is in the apparent contradiction of the question. Yes, I still over analyze things, yes I am still bothered by thinking at times, but the more I sit the more I SEE where the solution to my problem is not.

Ahhhhhh…..it feels good to let it out like this. Sorry for the very long post and I would love to hear you comments.

Gassho, A

[Kokuu]

Hi Andrea!

Labelling thoughts is a common practice in vipassana meditation but I had not heard of it in relation to Zazen. Thoughts come, thoughts go and I would say that noticing is another thought. For a long time I saw my thoughts about meditation (well, more of an ongoing commentary) as a special category that should be listened to but they are just thoughts too. Nothing special.

The advice here does seem to complicate labelling. Labelling 'Thoughts about Mary' seems quite a specific category! When I have used this in the past I have just said 'thinking' and returned to the breath. When you are meditating on an object such as the breath, I think labelling in this way can be appropriate. For shikantaza, I would say not, but Jundo or Taigu will doubtless give you a more definitive answer!

With regards to life away from the cushion, I can see that if one is often bothered by thoughts which distract from what you are doing, labelling could be a valuable practice just to say 'thinking' then go back to where attention should be (if you are working, preparing food or whatever). It is certainly a good antidote to daydreaming.

One last point in relation to thoughts is a story that meditation teacher Jack Kornfield tells of when he was younger. After some time of sitting he proudly told his teacher that he had managed to get rid of all his thoughts. The teacher replied 'And what is wrong with thoughts?'!

Thanks for posting, Andrea. I imagine it will spark some interesting replies.


Gassho
Andy

[Rich]

I used to think that all my thoughts were very important. So letting them go or putting them down was difficult. Now if some thinking is about an action I need to do and I can't do it right now I'll. Just write down for later.

[Taigu]

In Zen, in here at least, but also in mst lineages, we never tell people to label thoughts. It is a nice practice, very helpful in other traditions but has a few problems:

In doing so one gives thoughts too much importance, when a thought is just noticed, come back to your sitting.

Unless you are planning to keep a mental diary of your thinking activity, which is thinking agin by the way, don t start.

One should not be bothered by thinking, or we have all to be ready to be bothered for ever because thinking never stops. Rather we learn to get a broader perspective, instead of burning thoughts through an intense mental gaze, we walk backwards, take a broader view and learn to see any thought like part of the field of being, as a cloud is part of the deep blue sky. Allow the natural play of clouds ( thoughts) and mountain (sitting).

Gassho

Taigu

[Jundo]

Hi,

I agree with my Brother Taigu. But I usually say it this way ...

We do emphasize some awareness and mindfulness of our thoughts and emotions ... but not during the time of seated Zazen. Our Zazen is the radical non-doing of Shikantaza, and awareness of the "mind theatre" and tricks and games of the human mind is something primarily "off the cushion".

Being "mindful" of the "mind theatre" running constantly in our heads (developing the ability to identify the thoughts and emotions that play through our heads, and how they create our experience of "reality" ... e.g., "now I am temporarily sad" "now I am reacting with anger") is important and basic to most schools of Buddhism. In our way of Shikantaza, on and off the cushion, we emphasize seeing through and letting thoughts (specially harmful thoughts) go.

I do not know about formal "labeling", but some awareness in life of the games of the "mind theatre" is important although, again, we tend to do so "off the cushion" and not as part of Zazen "on the cushion" (as in Vipassana meditation). Have a look at our recommended "Nurturing Seeds" Practice ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6540-RECOMMENDED-DAILY-Nurturing-Seeds-PRACTICE

I believe that Joko Beck and her students, many of whom are practicing Western psychologists of one kind or another, have been sometimes influenced by Vipassana Practice.

But more than "labeling", the allowing, releasing and clarity of thinking-non-thinking of Shikantaza is our way here in our Practice. As Taigu said ...

we walk backwards, take a broader view and learn to see any thought like part of the field of being, as a cloud is part of the deep blue sky. Allow the natural play of clouds ( thoughts) and mountain (sitting).

Gassho, Jundo

[Patrick]

I'm an not and expert on this, but there is one thing important about the traditions who use "labeling" of the thoughts : the goal with that (labeling thoughts) is not the labeling itself (from what I have read). You label the thoughts when they arise and then go back tho your usual meditation practice (mantra for example).

Here is a link to a Buddhist tradition website that use labeling if you are interested.

http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/articles/how-to-meditate/

P.S. Please excuse the mistakes I (may) have made, English is not my first language.

[Taigu]

The labeling of thoughts has a sole purpose: to stop the identification process and therefore come back to the actual practice. Both Jundo and I are aware of this. You are invited to read our posts carefully and study further the first version of Fukanzazengi, when a thought arises, wake up to it and it will vanish. No labeling needed.
And your English is as good as mine tetsugakucha.
Gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Here is a link to a Buddhist tradition website that use labeling if you are interested.

http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/articles/how-to-meditate/

Yes, the link pointed to is by a Theravadan Teacher and, though a wonderful Tradition, a bit different from the way practiced here and Shikantaza.

Let's say that some awareness of the mind's tricks and show is important in any Buddhist Tradition, but we do not engage typically in active labeling practice.

Gassho, Jundo

[Mp]

Allow the natural play of clouds ( thoughts) and mountain (sitting).

I really like this statement ... Thank you Taigu and Jundo for your clear presentation.

Gassho
Shingen

[Jundo]

Yes, we "just sit" ... we let thoughts go without analysis during Zazen. There is nothing to do or attain in the sitting, nothing to examine or focus upon ... and that non-doing and non-examining is VITAL and SACRED. Even during our busy day, when annoyances or resistance, anger or upset come into mind, we can turn to a bit of "standing Shikantaza" ... just release them, let them go, do not become trapped.

However, "vipassana" (in the meaning of insight into the human mind theatre) is also vital in about every corner of Buddhism, Zen included. For example, "thought awareness" as thoughts and emotions arise during our busy day ... when tired, hot, a little angry, happy, etc. ... is a wonderful practice. I also advocate a practice of being aware of the different thoughts that come into mind, just not --during-- Zazen itself (when we are not to be adding anything). This awareness is, however, a very important part of learning to observe our mind's workings and tricks. So, for example, instead of just feeling angry, greedy or tired, and instead of just saying to ourselves merely "I am feeling angry/greedy/tired now", we should learn to say to ourselves such things as "this is my mind now temporarily feeling angry/greedy/tired during present conditions ... I can feel it arising, I can feel it developing, I can feel it passing away, I can let it go". When we learn to do that, experiencing the emotions of the mind becomes just watching a bit of theatre.

All that is good, just not a practice for "during" Zazen, when we observe everything and nothing in particular.

Here is more that I wrote on the topic ...

Buddhist Practice is usually described as flying upon the twin wings of Samatha (calming thoughts and emotions, illuminating and dropping body-mind) and awareness and understanding of vipassana (insight and awareness primarily into the nature and workings of 'self' and mental functions). That is true in Zen practice no less than most other forms of Buddhist practice.

In a nutshell, Vipassana might be described as insights and awareness, based on Buddhist psychology, as to how the mind works and plays it games. It is an understanding of the Skandhas (form, sensation, perception, mental formation, consciousness ... those words always sung in the Heart Sutra), how our thoughts and emotional reactions arise, how we label and divide the world. We should also understand the Buddha's ideas about how suffering arises within us, which is intimately tied to all that.

However, unlike some schools of Buddhism, in Shikantaza we do not pursue any particular practices --during-- Zazen itself in order to cultivate such vipassana insight ... and much insight naturally arises from Zazen as "Zazen does its thing". Perhaps we might say that, just in "just sitting" Shikantaza ... dropping thoughts of this and that, thus quieting the mind's "mind games" ... we develop a natural sensitivity and understanding of the mind's "mind games" (much like one first comes to really appreciate what "urban noise" is when one first drives out of the city to the middle of the desert or some other truly quiet place).

Off the cushion too, we can learn to bring Shikantaza out into the world, learning to release thoughts and emotions which arise without being trapped by them.

And, apart from "on the Zafu" sitting times, it is also good to develop some insight and insight into the "mind's games", and come to identify the workings of the Skandhas and such within us day to day.

For example, if you feel an angry or jealous thought arising within you during your day, it is very helpful to identify that as a "bit of temporary mind theatre" and "just the self judging and conflicting with another perceived self". That gives us some distance from the passing emotion, and we no longer see the emotion as quite as inevitable and "true" as we might have before.

For example, in the case of anger ... We need to develop a sensitivity to how anger arises within us, the triggers which tend to set it off, the first feeling of it starting to arise and the cycle it follows until vanishing. We need to catch ourself more and develop the ability to say, "I am feeling the emotion of anger now, but it is only the mind created theater which is present in this moment ... it need not be so." We need to see it as a story the self writes for itself, "catch it" and thus not be "sucked in" and fooled as much. (Most people who feel anger do not realize it is just a mind created bit of theater which can be replaced by something else ... it is not the way things "have to be". E.g., most people think, when they become upset, that they have "reason to be upset, and it is true and justified", not an optional response to the circumstances). That realization and understanding of how our inner theater works is a step to developing the ability to "rewrite and change the story" at will.

So, yes, "samatha/vipassana" are both important.

Again, here is a practice called Nurturing Seeds, related to all this and inspired by some of the writings of Thich Nhat Hahn, which we encourage around here.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6540-RECOMMENDED-DAILY-Nurturing-Seeds-PRACTICE

Gassho, J

[Kyonin]

Thank you for all the wisdom in this thread.

I used labeling for many years before arriving to Zen. They work wonderfully, but now all I do is to be aware when I'm clinging to a thought. It's especially hard when I start my sittings. The mind is so full of chatter and ideas! But slowly it calms down and then there's nothing there.

When I realize I'm lost in a thought, I just let go and return to the empty space. Not sure how to explain that

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Hans]

Hello everyone,

my purely personal two cents are that labelling thoughts can be a good way to start a general meditation practise, in the same way as counting the breath. In the long run however the problem is that labelling a thought actually creates a distance between what you perveive as "you" and the thoughts you are labelling. So instead of opening up to the totality of experience in a non-judgmental way (and yes, that is a lifelong practise), one is in danger of cultivating a very perceptive form of dualism. So lookng at the overall flavour of our Shikantaza tradition it makes little sense IMHO to stick to labelling thoughts.

But hey, the universe is a big place

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Nengyo]

Allow the natural play of clouds ( thoughts) and mountain (sitting).

I really like this statement ... Thank you Taigu and Jundo for your clear presentation.

Gassho
Shingen

You beat me to the punch Shingen! I was going to post almost the same thing. That statement resonates well with my practice... even though I'm not a very tall mountain and there are always seems to be bunches of clouds

[Jundo]

Hello everyone,

my purely personal two cents are that labelling thoughts can be a good way to start a general meditation practise, in the same way as counting the breath. In the long run however the problem is that labelling a thought actually creates a distance between what you perveive as "you" and the thoughts you are labelling. So instead of opening up to the totality of experience in a non-judgmental way (and yes, that is a lifelong practise), one is in danger of cultivating a very perceptive form of dualism. So lookng at the overall flavour of our Shikantaza tradition it makes little sense IMHO to stick to labelling thoughts.

Hi Hans,

I might disagree a bit, and say that this is not the case for such Practices in a Theravadan context, where the labeling and mindfulness is ultimately meant to transcend the illusion and deceptions of selfness. So, the point of the practice is to get beyond the "you" and dualism.

And seeing through the self and the "you" is at the heart of Shikantaza too!

It is simply that they are rather different methods.

This is one of those times when I say that Karate is a powerful Marital Art, and Judo is a Powerful Art ... and some places may mix a bit of Judo and Karate (Jurate?) ... but ultimately I think that Karate or Judo should stand on their own and best should not be mixed ...

... and so, here in this Dojo, we practice Karate and not Judo.

Gassho, Jundo (not "Judo")

[jus]

yuttadhammo is awesome. ive learned a lot from him. I still watch his youtube series on the dhammapada, where he goes through each verse in pali and then in English, tells the story that goes along with it, and then breaks it down from his perspective. pretty cool stuff. gassho, Justin.