I have been doing Zazen all wrong!

[Myozan Kodo]

This is a great thread. Sam is asking for many that are afraid to ask. It is always time to sit again for the first time. Gold from our two teachers ...
Gassho
Myozan

[Kyonin]

Sam,

There is no method to follow.

Stop asking. Write less.

Just go sit.

That's all it takes, really.

Answers will come in time.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Jundo]

To be honest with you I found it to be a bit vague and more importantly I haven't found similar approach recommended anywhere else. So I am a bit hesitant to follow it.

Just in case someone might think I am making this up, preaching "Jundo's Shikantaza", here is how the bossman Dogen would write about the Wholly-Holy Sacred Wholeness of Zazen. We already had the quote from Bendowa above, this is from Zanma-O-Zanmai. It makes my words seem quite understated!

---------------------

Abruptly transcending all realms, to be greatly honored within the quarters of the buddhas and ancestors—this is sitting with legs crossed. Trampling the heads of the followers of alien ways and the legions of Māra [the Devil], to be the one here within the halls of the buddhas and ancestors—this is sitting with legs crossed. Transcending the extreme of the extremes of the buddhas and ancestors is just this one dharma. Therefore, the buddhas and ancestors engage in it, without any further task.

My former master, the old buddha, said,

“Studying Zen is body and mind sloughed off. You get it only by just sitting; you don’t need to burn incense, make prostrations, recollect the buddha, practice repentence, or look at scripture.”3

...

Now crossing the legs of the human skin, flesh, bones, and marrow, one crosses the legs of the king of samādhis samādhi. The World Honored One always maintains sitting with legs crossed; and to the disciples he correctly transmits sitting with legs crossed; and to the humans and gods he teaches sitting with legs crossed. The mind seal correctly transmitted by the seven buddhas is this.

The Buddha Śākyamuni, sitting with legs crossed under the bodhi tree, passed fifty small kalpas, passed sixty kalpas, passed countless kalpas. Sitting with legs crossed for twenty-one days, sitting cross-legged for one time — this is turning the wheel of the wondrous dharma; this is the buddha’s proselytizing of a lifetime. There is nothing lacking. This is the yellow roll and vermillion roller [that hold all the Sutras and Commentaries]. The buddha seeing the buddha is this time. This is precisely the time when beings attain buddhahood.

Upon coming from the west, the First Ancestor, the worthy Bodhidharma, passed nine autumns in seated meditation with legs crossed facing a wall at Shaolin monastery at Shaoshi Peak. Thereafter, his head and eyes have filled the world of the land of Cīnasthāna [China] till now. The vital artery of the First Ancestor is just sitting with legs crossed. Prior to the First Ancestor’s coming from the west, beings in the eastern lands had not known sitting with legs crossed; after the ancestral master came from the west, they knew it. Therefore, for one life or ten thousand lives, grasping the tail and taking the head [head to tail], without leaving the “grove” [right where you are], just sitting with legs crossed day and night, without other business — this is the king of samādhis samādhi.

http://scbs.stanford.edu/sztp3/translations/shobogenzo/translations/zanmai_o_zanmai/translation.html

------------------------

Or this from Zazenshin ...

Know this, that it is the seated buddha that buddha after buddha and ancestor after ancestor have taken as their essential function. Those who are buddhas and ancestors have employed this essential function, while those who are not have never even dreamt of it. To say that the buddha dharma has been transmitted from the Western Heavens to the Eastern Earth implies the transmission of the seated buddha, for it is the essential function. And where the buddha dharma is not transmitted, neither is seated meditation. What has been inherited by successor after successor [in this transmission] is just this essential message of seated meditation; one who does not participate in the single transmission of this essential message is not a buddha or an ancestor. When one is not clear about this one dharma, one is not clear about the ten thousand dharmas, not clear about the ten thousand practices. And without being clear about each dharma, one cannot be said to have a clear eye. One has not attained the way; how could he represent the present or past [in the lineage] of the buddhas and ancestors? By this, then, we should be firmly convinced that the buddhas and ancestors always singly transmit seated meditation.

To be illumined by the radiance of the buddhas and ancestors means to concentrate one's efforts in the investigation of this seated meditation. There are a bunch of fools who, misunderstanding the radiance of the buddha, think it must be like the radiance of the sun or moon or the light from a pearl or fire. But the light of the sun and moon is nothing but a mark of action within transmigration in the six destinies; it is not to be compared with the radiance of the buddha. The radiance of the buddha means receiving and hearing a single phrase, maintaining and protecting a single dharma, participating in the single transmission of seated meditation. So long as one is not illumined by the radiance [of the buddha], one is not maintaining, nor has he accepted, [the buddha dharma].

http://scbs.stanford.edu/sztp3/translations/shobogenzo/translations/zazenshin/zazenshin.translation.html

[Jinyo]

Another suggestion, Sam.

Listen to the voice of Sekito Kisen. He has something to tell you:

I’ve built a grass hut where there’s nothing of value.
After eating, I relax and enjoy a nap.
When it was completed, fresh weeds appeared.
Now it’s been lived in—covered by weeds.
The person in the hut lives here calmly,
not stuck to inside, outside, or in between.
Places worldly people live, he doesn’t live.
Realms worldly people love, he doesn’t love.
Though the hut is small, it includes the entire world.
In ten feet square, an old man illumines forms and their nature.
A Great Vehicle bodhisattva trusts without doubt.
The middling or lowly can’t help wondering;
Will this hut perish or not?
Perishable or not, the original master is present,
not dwelling south or north, east or west.
Firmly based on steadiness, it can’t be surpassed.
A shining window below the green pines—
jade palaces or vermillion towers can’t compare with it.
Just sitting with head covered all things are at rest.
Thus, this mountain monk doesn’t understand at all.
Living here he no longer works to get free.
Who would proudly arrange seats, trying to entice guests?
Turn around the light to shine within, then just return.
The vast inconceivable source can’t be faced or turned
away from.
Meet the ancestral teachers, be familiar with their instruction,
bind grasses to build a hut, and don’t give up.
Let go of hundreds of years and relax completely.
Open your hands and walk, innocent.
Thousands of words, myriad interpretations,
are only to free you from obstructions.
If you want to know the undying person in the hut,
don’t separate from this skin bag here and now.


You could check my old words about it:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7770-Sekito-s-poem-2

Gassho


Taigu

Hi Sam - if I were forced to travel lightly - ditching all books, instructions and the zillion of words that have been written on 'instruction' - I would choose to retain Sekito's poem. Whenever I feel 'lost' - like I'm not doing Zazen correct - I return to the anchor point of Sekita's poem.

Gassho

Willow

[Genshin]

So much wisdom and instruction condensed into one thread. Where were you when I started out down this path?

Thank you Jundo and Taigu.

Gassho
Matt

[shikantazen]

All,

Thanks for your replies and clarifications. May be it will all make sense one day. I don't know why this practice has to be so vague and unclear unlike other practices. The poems and all those beautiful philosophical descriptions sound great but if someone can put practical instructions (either here or in a PM) to me that would be useful. I'll try to follow Uchiyama roshi's instructions on this for now. If that doesn't work may be i'll start following my breath.

Thanks again for your help.

- Sam

[Genshin]

Hi Sam,

Opening The Hand Of Thought by Uchiyama Roshi is a great book. I'm on my second read. I know very little about our practice, but If you do pick up a copy read page 165 onwards (obviously read it all). Uchiyama Roshi talks about sitting for ten years and then another ten years, and ten years after that. The one thing I do know is that it is not a race to the finish.

All the best & Gassho,
Matt

All,

Thanks for your replies and clarifications. May be it will all make sense one day. I don't know why this practice has to be so vague and unclear unlike other practices. The poems and all those beautiful philosophical descriptions sound great but if someone can put practical instructions (either here or in a PM) to me that would be useful. I'll try to follow Uchiyama roshi's instructions on this for now. If that doesn't work may be i'll start following my breath.

Thanks again for your help.

- Sam

[Jundo]

All,

Thanks for your replies and clarifications. May be it will all make sense one day. I don't know why this practice has to be so vague and unclear unlike other practices. The poems and all those beautiful philosophical descriptions sound great but if someone can put practical instructions (either here or in a PM) to me that would be useful. I'll try to follow Uchiyama roshi's instructions on this for now. If that doesn't work may be i'll start following my breath.

Thanks again for your help.

- Sam

Imagine that! Zen folks talkin' kinda vague and unclear-ish!



Hang in there, Sam. Keep sitting.

Gassho, J

[Jishin]

Hi Sam,

Jundo and Taigu posted some instructional material on sitting that was helpful to me here:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?84-Shikantaza-by-Taigu

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?88-Fukanzazengi-by-Taigu

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?66-VITAL-POINTS-of-SHIKANTAZA-ZAZEN

Gassho, John

[McGettigan]

Ok Sam,

What keeps the waters muddy here is the will to be right, to get it right and not being wrong. As Jundo points out, shikantaza is letting go of this right and wrong. Shikantaza is whole, complete, lacking nothing. It is the boat, the bloke and the other shore in one place, in one piece, at once and timelessly. This practice is beyond skilled or unskilled, does not require a particular technique or anchoring. Why? Because it is already panoramic and broad, in other words we don t make or create a special state called panoramic mind, Deshimaru roshi used to say that it is returning to normal conditions. If you knock on the door of Chan, tibetan or Vipassana teachers they will sing you another song, not wrong, just their way.
So what do I do when I sit? I sometimes put my mind in the palm of my left hand, feel the uprightness of the body, indulge in Kannon s activity listening to the sounds of theO world, watch thoughts passing by like clouds in the blue sky, look at the blue sky being loved by white clouds, look at the non dual reality of clouds and sky, I also sometimes do nothing at all, actually a lot of not doing, I do all of the above surrendering to the deep faith that even asleep or distracted on the cushion, it is still zazen. I don t judge my pratice anymore, don t try to get it right or better. I have left behind a long time ago athletic and competitive practice, greedy and hungry sitting, caught by the still state, hugged by things as they are I just sit and whatever... I allow Buddha to do the job.
Hope this helps.

Gassho


Taigu

Well said. Deep bows.

You'll find your path Sam. To me the concept of this practice isn't vague. Not because I'm smarter or better read. Just because I sit, and in not doing I allow the muddy water to settle. I've experienced it. This is the frequently used expression to which Taigu is using, in case that isn't known. A cup of muddy water will clear if you leave it to sit. The dirt will float to the bottom and the water will be clear.

The cup just needs to be still.

To me, the practice is its own point. I don't really have any big goal. Essentially, the teachings feel right to me, Zazen feels right to me. Now I know that is vague. Ha. But it's my truth. You're truth is out there. It might be here. It might not. But I do wish you the best.

Gassho,

Mc (I think there are quite enough Johns, ha. Kyonin called me Mc in a private message so I'll go with that)

[Koshin]

Thank you for asking Sam, this is such a helpful thread, I agree on Myozan's comment


I have been sitting for some time now, but I still, sometimes, have your same doubts, some times I wonder "Am I doing this thing right??" "Am I missing something?".... so, I think I know how do you feel/think about this Practice.... we just want some clear 1+2=3 instructions, so we can do "good" Zazen and don't loose our time and get Nirvana as fast as possible, become Buddha and be happy and wise forever after...


But, you know, there are other times when I can SEE through the vague and unclear instructions and UNDERSTAND them without words.....maybe because, at some point, I KNOW that am not going to get something, some result, out of my Zazen (goodbye Nirvana, goodbye Wisdom), I can see that there is nothing to measure, judge or compare about my Zazen (it is ALWAYS as it has to be, perfectly imperfect)....sometimes (very few, by the way) I can FEEL what is to JUST SIT.... of course, the moment I REALIZE this, I loose it, because in that very moment, I begin to compare, to label, to judge my Zazen..... then is time to JUST SIT again, over and over again..... simple, isn't it??? Nothing to attain, no place to go.....


I don't know about yesterday's Zazen, I forgot... I don't know about tomorrow's Zazen, as it is not here yet, I don't know about today's Zazen, because, maybe, there is nothing to Know about it, I just have to sit, not-knowing, not-doing, not-thinking...


Of course, it is just my foolish take on this, I don't know nothing....only that Uchiyama's book is great. I am almost finishing it for the third time, then will start Beck's Everyday Zen


Gassho

[Jinyo]

Koshin



Willow

[tedmac]

Thanks for your replies and clarifications. May be it will all make sense one day. I don't know why this practice has to be so vague and unclear unlike other practices.

If it happens to make sense one day, just give it time and the feeling will pass. I don't know why other practices have to be so precise and clear, but why isn't critical.

Water in the stream
Sometimes clear, sometimes unclear;
Fish just keep swimming.


-Untei

[Jundo]

Thank you for asking Sam, this is such a helpful thread, I agree on Myozan's comment


I have been sitting for some time now, but I still, sometimes, have your same doubts, some times I wonder "Am I doing this thing right??" "Am I missing something?".... so, I think I know how do you feel/think about this Practice.... we just want some clear 1+2=3 instructions, so we can do "good" Zazen and don't loose our time and get Nirvana as fast as possible, become Buddha and be happy and wise forever after...


But, you know, there are other times when I can SEE through the vague and unclear instructions and UNDERSTAND them without words.....maybe because, at some point, I KNOW that am not going to get something, some result, out of my Zazen (goodbye Nirvana, goodbye Wisdom), I can see that there is nothing to measure, judge or compare about my Zazen (it is ALWAYS as it has to be, perfectly imperfect)....sometimes (very few, by the way) I can FEEL what is to JUST SIT.... of course, the moment I REALIZE this, I loose it, because in that very moment, I begin to compare, to label, to judge my Zazen..... then is time to JUST SIT again, over and over again..... simple, isn't it??? Nothing to attain, no place to go.....


I don't know about yesterday's Zazen, I forgot... I don't know about tomorrow's Zazen, as it is not here yet, I don't know about today's Zazen, because, maybe, there is nothing to Know about it, I just have to sit, not-knowing, not-doing, not-thinking...


Of course, it is just my foolish take on this, I don't know nothing....only that Uchiyama's book is great. I am almost finishing it for the third time, then will start Beck's Everyday Zen


Gassho

Lovely. Thank you K,U, everyone ...

Water in the stream
Sometimes clear, sometimes unclear;
Fish just keep swimming.

[Shokai]

Originally posted by Untei;
If it happens to make sense one day, just give it time and the feeling will pass.

I like that! I don't beat myself up when I have thoughts during zazen

gassho, Shokai