My answer to the previous thread

[Rich]

There is an adyashanti thread from 4 years ago that chet disastermouse started. Can't figure out how to copy the url on my phone. Haven't read this entire thread so maybe someone already has.

[Dosho]

There is an adyashanti thread from 4 years ago that chet disastermouse started. Can't figure out how to copy the url on my phone. Haven't read this entire thread so maybe someone already has.

Is this the one you are referring to Rich?

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6374-Adyashanti-quote

Gassho,
Dosho

[Daitetsu]

There was a time when I somehow was drawn between paths.
The zen that is practiced here appeals to me, it makes me feel home. I find it kind of relaxing I don't have to decide for a path anymore. I know which one is right for me (at least I think so).
When it comes to reading, I am still very open, but tend to focus on Zen and (philosophical) Taoist stuff. I am still open to take a look at indepedent teachers, to get some inspiration and just for kicks.

The problem for someone being new here is to see Treeleaf forum like an open discussion board. IMHO it is helpful to make oneself clear that this is a forum of a specific sangha, not an open Zen board.

Gassho,

Timo

[Rich]

Yes. Thanks dosho

[AlanLa]

Late to the thread, as is my custom.

Taigu, I love you. As you know, we come to this place (as in here, a physical, temporal, internet, and otherwise, place) from very different yet similar histories, but we get struggle. We understand and value struggle. We know there is no simple answer to release from struggle. To get out, you gotta go deeper in.

Jundo, I love you. You get it, too. You also know struggle from different sides and personal realities. We've both been there in different ways. We both know that the way through it is to delve deeper into it.

Taigu, Jundo, and I know that the pain is the release (well, they still know it better then me), and anyone that tells you otherwise is selling snake oil.

The most effective medication all time, when all studies are combined, is placebo. Seriously true, look it up. That Adya guy is selling placebo.

[Oheso]

yes, a great loss, indeed, for all 3 of us ( I, me AND mine )

thank you all, for everything.

gassho,


-Robert

[Gen01]

Thank you for the post! Gassho

[Matt]

Hello,


This post brings up a question I have had for some time now. Apologies if this has been asked before.


As a relative newcomer to zen, I have at times wondered why the atmosphere in zen temples and the teacher-student relationships is, from my limited experience, often so stern or strict.


I very much believe that the teacher is trying to help the student, and that the rules in the temple are there for a good reason. However, this has been the issue I have struggled with the most in my practice, as I naturally shy away from situations in which I perceive conflict.


I suspect part of my difficulty with this is related to operating out of a place of ego. I also realize that in asking this question I am using a discriminating mind.


My sincere thanks in advance for any feedback.


Gassho,
Matt J

[Jundo]

Hi Matt,

That is a very good question.

In part, I would say that it comes from the typical apprentice-master relationship found in many traditional societies, and all through Asia. Not only in Buddhism, but in learning a trade or art like being a blacksmith. The apprentice/disciple was to loyally and sternly follow the teacher until reaching the point of mastery. Japan and many Asian societies are still very conscious of who is "senior" and who is "junior" all through society (the Japanese language even is very different in structure for each, as "juniors" use special respectful and submissive language to social seniors, and seniors use special casual or brusk language back). I was just listening to a podcast about the "Guru" in Tibetan Buddhism, and one must absolutely throw one's self and loyalty into faith and trust in the Guru.

In the the West, things are much more democratic and egalitarian. Sometimes it goes too far (as Taigu sometimes reminds us), and nobody wants to listen to the teachers and everybody wants to do their own thing.

The other aspect is that a Buddhist monastery was often very much like a boot camp, not unlike a marine boot camp, meant to break down the self in order to master the self. They may do things to teach humility and get past the ego, including slaps and insults here and there, shocking in the West where everyone is thinking about their "rights" and personal "space" and "enjoyment" very often. (At my last visit to Eiheiji, I witnessed a poor monk on the kitchen staff being chewed out in public by his screaming "drill sargent", made to stand on a box in the middle of the hallway where everyone could see, for some small error). One found Liberation right in and as and transcending what at first seems like restriction and confinement.

Now, in the West, with a more "out in the world" Practice, one may seek Liberation right in and as and transcending the complexities and busyness of daily life and responsibilities. Same Liberation, although somewhat different approach is sometimes required. In fact, the complexities and busyness of the world ... work and family ... are their own kind of restriction and confinement! (And now, Taigu and I only verbally say something with a little bit of a slap or reproach sometimes, at which point folks say that Taigu and I are being rude and "unZenlike", are offended and run away! )

But I think that, now and even in the old days and the strictest monasteries, people were still people. There is always plenty of laughter, games, deep friendships, lots of time to "kick back" and "let one's hair down" (of course, what hair?). A monastery is not all sternness and formalities all day. There is a balance there of serious work and ease as in all our lives.

Anyway, that is my opinion. In a typical Japanese Zazenkai people usually don't ask so many ... if any ... questions. In the old days and even still today, you would simply bow and not question what the teacher says (at least, not in public).

Gassho, Jundo

[jus]

thanks for asking, matt. and thanks for answering, jundo. as I was wondering this too. I think its strange for us in the west because were a big "do it yourself" society. couple that with (most of) our distrust for people in power, especially in spiritual matters, people in the past who may have told us "this is how it is" and that we have to do "this and that". and, for myself atleast, it never worked out. and questions that I had never really added up. im also a traditionalist though. so if I get into anything, I want to known the heart of the matter, not any watered down versions of it, and im sure I come off like the strict zen master in other areas of my life. gassho, justin

[Matt]

Sincere thanks for that explanation, Jundo. As well to jus for your reply.

I have been reflecting on my question since I posted, and feel that perhaps part of my problem is that I do not want this zen practice to be too difficult, which is a failing on my part. I am resolving to use this doubt to commit more deeply with practice.

Gassho,
Matt J

[Heisoku]

Hi Matt
I wonder if by too difficult you mean that you do not want your 'ideas' challenged? This was something that I found myself facing after starting here.
Since then, my views have just merged with all the other wonderful views that have been expounded in Treeleaf. In the end they are just passing clouds. Gassho.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9790 using Tapatalk

[Shonin]

Yugen, I'm in a similar boat to you in terms of where I was pre-Treeleaf.. I refuse to give up energy work for example. There's no need to. the difference now is that I try to see it through the eyes of the soto zen Buddhist as taught here. It is actually my own expeiences in more new agey ideals that led me to Treeleaf in the first place. What I found here and in the teachings represented here felt like a missing puzzle piece and a cut to the chase approach of my mixed self style ( cross-cultural shamanism and Usui Reiki Ryoho). I haven't toally given up what I believed and what I have experienced but thus far nothing of what has been taught here conflicts with any of that.

At first I saw some differences. Then just similarities a different way of going about the exact same thing. What I think really sealed the deal was hearing Jundo mention that the rocks and trees are also sentient beings.

As for mixing styles in general. It can lead to severe confusion. It's part of why I stopped hanging in the new age forums. People would misunderstand something, or read and take as fact something totally misunderstood or repackaged and add it to their little collection of spiritual factoids. But not every spiritual teaching blends with every other one. Or else it would all be one form of spirituality not several.

Just my take on things. and I rarely know what I'm talking about anyways

Dave _/\_

[YuimaSLC]

Some years ago a Japanese fellow, Kaoru Nonomura, wrote a book, "EAT SLEEP SIT My Year at Japan's Most Rigorous Zen Temple" that presented the author's perceptual account of his experience; rather a blow-by-blow account (pun intended) of some of the harsh realities of the time spent at Eihei-ji.

An interesting read, although, upon my completion of reading it I (a) wondered why he was motivated to be there in the first place, despite his attempts to explain, and (b) what did he really learn? The reader is truly left at a loss to understand the value, if any, he developed being there.

I would not recommend this book other than to understand that there is a tradition of boot-camp/hazing style going on in some monastic communities. But, it's not a secret. Referred to as "deeds of the utmost kindness" or "informal encouragement".

And, with tongue-in-cheek, we could re-quote F. Nietzche's "....that which doesn't kill me, makes me stronger."

I think there needs to be a strong, assertive sense of organization/discipline in a monastery...combined with an equally strong sense of kindness, gratitude and love (in contrast to enmity).

Gassho

Richard

[Shonin]

A lot of people, myself included, find it difficult or simply choose not to discipline themselves much. Especially We The Outspoken Assholes of America. When this topic comes up " why can't we do whatever we waannntt?" it reminds me to do the exact opposite because I understand that mentality so well from a lifetime of living it. This beautiful practice is like anything else. We get out of it what we put into it and the sometimes rigorous discipline or insistence that things be done a certain way around here aren't actually limitations or shackles it's throwing us right into the heart of the Way. It's giving what many of us say to ourselves we want, just sometimes in a presentation different than what we expect. In a loose sort of way we are like the military ( not that I find this sangha to be overly strict mind you). We are being guided, trained, forged and honed into our true selves.

Dave _/\_