My answer to the previous thread

[Taigu]

Time to say a few things.

Suppose you take part in a retreat of some sort led by a charismatic and great teacher of a non Zen tradition, and you suddenly interrupt him and start to explain the whole show about Dogen, the practice, the lineage and show how it clearly works and how beautiful and true it is...I can imagine that the teacher will invite you to stop, reminding you that you are, because of your presence in this event, supposed to practice what he is teaching. You order the food that the chef is cooking, you don t walk in a Chinese restaurant asking for Indian curry. This is the meaning of :" get off my lawn, kids". Nothing wrong with Zen, nothing wrong with the other tradition, just a matter of manner, timing and being in tune with what happens.

I would like to thank the guys here that say they don't understand : where are you? And at the same time, would invite them to give this question more time before they try to ansswer it, answering such a question is off the mark, living with this question as a dynamic and whirling action is key. Derviches never fall in the static state, the still state, zazen, is not the static state.

A teacher is a person that does his or her very best to live accordingly to the Buddha Dharma and point to the original face of the student, a coach, a spiritual friend, he will only focus on what is really important and required without all the fluff and stuff we sometimes get lost in. And that s precisely what does not work with the New Age take on things, you merely blend traditions, merge recipes, cook your own thing and sometimes self proclaim yourself a spiritual teacher, often with a solid bank account hidden behind the stage. Rags hiding riches. In doing so you may be sharing a few inspiring advices but you are also feeding greed and confusion in people expecting something special to happen on the happy Spiritual market of spirituality, the modern quest for the latest gadget, the most up to date version of the software. The role of a teacher is to help the student to cut through that crap and come to simplicity. Tibetan Buddhism is plagued with this illness of collecting merits and doing countless initiations. Many Tibetan teachers are now asking their students to keep it simple. Otherwise, you will always be begging for something else.

Do I read much outside Zen? Not anymore. A few beloved poems of Rumi, a text from the Mahamudra or Dzogchen tradition sometimes, I basically focus on Shobogenzo, sutras and old Chinese Chan poetry. Everything else is not necessary anymore. Call me stupid, shortsighed, call me limited and intolerant ( actually I respect the other guys very much, too much for asking from them Zen- like stuff, or taking some ofthe things they teach to fit into my way of doing this).

Zen is Zen. Advaita is Advaita. Jundo is Jundo.

One last thing. Two days ago I met a Zen monk form the Rinzai monastery round the block,a white scarf wrapping his head wearing a black samue, he was shopping some great food in Seven Eleven, the local combini. As I asked him where he was from and if he was a priest, he answered in complete humbleness lowering his gaze: I am just training, I am nothing really.

This is very extreme. in Europe and in America guys voice their opinions loud and with great pride on forums and in dojos.

I suppose the truth is somewhat in the middle. We have much too learn from this humble ( yet too often hypocritical ) soft way, they could do with a bit of our cocky style.

Gassho


Taigu

[Mp]

Wonderfully simple ... Thank you for this post.

Gassho
Shingen

[Yugen]

Gassho Taigu.

I agree with you for the most part. I am however such a neophyte in practice and therefore my opinions and any sort of agreement are worthless and off the mark the minute they are uttered.

My practice has migrated over the last few years from a new age - type meditation to Soto Zen practice. I am grateful to all ancestors who have come before me and sustain me in this rich tradition.

I also read little outside Zen now with some exceptions. I adore the poetry of Naomi Shihab Nye ( I am indebted to Myozan here - "Kindness," "Different Kinds of Prayer"), as well as Mahmoud Darwish, the Palestinian poet. His poems speak of the love of place, and the rich sadness of dry, red, soil and olive trees.

Deep bows,
Yugen

[shikantazen]

Thanks for your wisdom Taigu

[Jiken]

Gassho Taigu

Daido

[Amelia]

Swak!

Gassho

[Heisoku]

Gassho Taigu.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9790 using Tapatalk

[Kokuu]

I have moved from Tibetan practice for exactly the reasons you talk about, Taigu. So much emphasis on merits, Tulkus, dharma protectors, initiations, blessings and so forth. I want to cut through my thinking, not add more. Shikantaza practice makes it plain that is all there is. Beginning students just sit, teachers just sit, Bodhidharma just sat. Nothing more to aspire to.

Thank you for the reminder of keeping it simple.


Gassho
Andy

[Kyonin]

I won't call you anything, but my teacher.

Thank you Taigu.

I know I am here.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Jundo]

If I may take the liberty to clarify one point (and I am sure you agree, Taig', but correct me if wrong) is that we do not mean to say that one cannot Practice "Zen Buddhism" while also something else too. I sometimes say that one can practice Zen Buddhism while also a Republican, Democrat or apolitical, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim, Atheist or Agnostic. I would say that, so long as it is a belief system that avoids hate, violence, excess greed and such (e.g., a "Zen Buddhist Nazi" will go a dark way), all can mix.

Also, Some forms of Christianity and Judaism or other belief may be practiced in ways that shut out or are incompatible with other systems such as Buddhism (due to the problem of rejection and exclusivism on the other side ... "Jesus is the only way, meditation is evil" etc. ... not on the "Zen" side), but not all Christians and Jews practice in such ways. Some ways of practicing Christianity and Judaism are quite compatible and harmonious with Zen Practice.

One can be a political liberal or conservative, black or white or Asian, male or female, car mechanic or nurse, Christian or Atheist, dabbler in some Tibetan Practice or Advaita or not ... and still practice "Shikantaza". However, when practicing Shikantaza, SHIKANTAZA MUST BE SHIKANTAZA'D WITH A CERTAIN UNDERSTANDING, to wit:

Seated Zazen is our ONE AND ONLY practice, for by the very nature of Shikantaza ... when sitting Zazen, there is nothing more to do, nothing more that need be done, no addition needed nor anything to take away. Zazen is complete and whole. No other place to be in all the world, no other place we must (or can) run to. Nothing lacks, all is sacred, and Zazen is the One Liturgy. It is vital to be sat by Zazen with such attitude. Thus, Zazen is sat each day as the One and Whole Practice. If one sits any other way, if one sits with any sensation of "'I' need to fill some hole that is not Whole" ... one kills Zazen, gets nowhere. If one sits Zazen, one need do no other practice!

So it is ... when sitting Zazen. Getting up from the Zafu, one can then get on with life ... go to church if one wishes, or a football game.

It is much like saying that one can play tennis, but also like football. It is just that one needs to be careful about playing football with a tennis racket, or tennis with goal posts. Some ways do not mix well.

And while football may be a lovely sport, here in the Treeleaf Tennis School we play tennis ... not football. So, leave your cleats outside.

Gassho, J

(Maybe I confused things more!)

[Juki]

Gassho, Taigu.

[MyoHo]

Hhi guys

In response to what Judo posted:

....is that we do not mean to say that one cannot Practice "Zen Buddhism" while also something else too. I sometimes say that one can practice Zen Buddhism while also a Republican, Democrat or apolitical, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim, Atheist or Agnostic. I would say that, so long as it is a belief system that avoids hate, violence, excess greed and such (e.g., a "Zen Buddhist Nazi" will go a dark way), all can mix.

Good point and very true but I really don't read that in Taigu's post? What he says rings very true. We don't need to interrupt our beautiful Tennis game to introduce soccer, and that’s mainly what I read in Taigu’s post. Your clarification however is well placed, thank you for that. It is a topic I for one am very interested in, but hesitate to bring into play exactly because of the point Taigu is making.

Also, Some forms of Christianity and Judaism or other belief may be practiced in ways that shut out or are incompatible with other systems such as Buddhism (because the problem of rejection and exclusivism on the other side ... "Jesus is the only way, meditation is evil" etc. ... not on the "Zen" side), but not all Christians and Jews practice in such ways. Some ways of practicing Christianity and Judaism are quite compatible and harmonious with Zen Practice.

Very true. A short comment: I have been working on this for a long time as an active Christian with some teaching responsibilities in church. I'll admit it is hard sometimes, because not all Christian people understand this and tend to take an aggressive and dismissive stand against everything outside church walls. Times, however are changing and more and more Christian folks (like myself) happily practice Zen and go to church. Some say it is a loss, others say it is gain. Food for thought and room for discussion I’d say. Personally I can hardly wait to start Jukai preparations in the fall!

How can Zen Buddhism and Christianity work together? It istempting to write a whole essay on this, ( many already have) in response to this quote, but like you and Taigu said earlier, "No football on the tennis court please." A very good point. Let’s stick to that. We can sure talk football and enjoy a good discussion about it, but this is a Wimbledon court and it's tennis what we are here for, right?

I’ll get off the lawn now, before some other unknown "Jundo spider superpower" comes after me .


Gasssho

Enkyo

[Genshin]

Thank you Taigu and Jundo.

Gassho
Matt

[Oheso]

Obviously, I'm pretty new here. One of the first posts I made in these forums ("non-dual philosophy") came after reading a book called "radically condensed instructions for being just who you are" or something like that. in my naiveté, I picked it up in a fairly wide-ranging effort to learn more about the practice I was and am practicing, Soto Zen Shikantaza as described and taught by Master Dogen. if I feed my so-called intellect something to chew on, I know from experience that helps me a lot to move forward generally, even in areas not primarily approached through intellect, like the practice of Dogen's Soto Zen. I went tripping merrily through this book, enjoying it and feeling I was getting insights about Zen practice, and only after I finished it, learned the author was a proponent of Advaita, a philosophy, which I confess I had never even heard of. (and I'm no spring chicken) so I thought: jeez louise, here I thought I was understanding better and learning about Zen and the book was about something called "Advaita"! I'll get a Zen perspective- post in my new sangha's forum and find out more about what it is and how it relates to Zen practice. I asked something like "can a Zen person learn anything from studying Advaita?"

the resulting thread unfolded curiously, to me. a lot of what I perceived happening was a discussion about the advisability of "mixing" traditions with a decidedly "circling of the wagons" flavor to it. at one point I felt it pertinent to ask if what was being suggested amounted to "orthodoxy is its own reward", which, by the way, I pretty much believe it is, but was not all what was I was interested in finding out. I didn't want to bowl at a hockey rink or order crispy fried chicken in an Italian restaurant. I don't doubt that I am woefully unskillful at formulating questions. words are not my thing and logic is not my strong suit. I was an art major. I am, by the grace of Providence, a painter at heart. I'm frightened by the devil and drawn to those who ain't, as the song goes-

since then I've read posts by other sangha members, new and not, that were met by replies which seemed to me to include an attitude of being dismissive at best and mean-spirited at worst, with defensiveness somewhere in between. throw in a measure of deliberate obsfuscation and gratuitous contradictoriness to augment the mix. it's my sincere belief that sufficient time on my zafu (or seiza) will answer or render moot most if not all of the questions I have and which arise on these boards, but to my mind, the repetition of the company line of "just sit" is not always the appropriate one-size-that-fits-all response to individual inquiries. it feels like non-thinking in an insensitive, inconsiderate (unconsidered) sense. as for the dervishes, they have whirled completely off the radar screen of what I can follow. I know my personal psychological history often leaves me particularly liable to feeling on the outside looking in, so there's my big grain of salt and I think I've exposed most of my comprehensional deficiencies. so I thought: can these be skillful means of instruction? I know Zen instruction is known for having it's harsh side, -guess I've got to wake up and get with the program.

I was told early-on in my association with Zen the story of the 2 animal mothers, a cat and a monkey, taking their babies across the road. the cat mother picks each one up by the scruff of the neck and carries them to the other side. the monkey mother goes scrambling across the road with her babies hanging on to her back for dear life. "Zen," said the senior monastic who was giving that particular dharma talk, "is like the monkey mother."

clinging for all I'm worth, doubtless making it harder than it needs to be, and still grateful for the ride,

gassho,

Robert

[hbh]

since then I've read posts by other sangha members, new and not, that were met by replies which seemed to me to include an attitude of being dismissive at best and mean-spirited at worst, with defensiveness somewhere in between. throw in a measure of deliberate obsfuscation and gratuitous contradictoriness to augment the mix. it's my sincere belief that sufficient time on my zafu (or seiza) will answer or render moot most if not all of the questions I have and which arise on these boards, but to my mind, the repetition of the company line of "just sit" is not always the appropriate one-size-that-fits-all response to individual inquiries.

I have seen some legitimate questions answered with (for lack of a better term) "zennie" answers which seem deep at a glance but are profoundly unhelpful to the person asking the question. I don't think anyone here has the intention of being dismissive or haughty but I think it can come off that way. It is one of the downsides to reading someone's text as opposed to actually speaking with him or her. There is no inflection in plain text so a comment can seem harsher then it was intended.

And whenever there is an authority figure involved (as there inherently will be in a teacher-student relationship no matter how much a teacher may try to make it more of a learned friend-learning friend situation) there will always be a certain amount of "Daddy pleasers" who will simply parrot what they feel the teachers want to hear without asking themselves whether or not it was even remotely helpful to the person asking the original question. I'm not trying to cast aspersions towards anyone at all. This is a fairly common dynamic.