The mind itself is buddha

[Jishin]

"The Mind Itself is Buddha" is a chapter on Shobogenzo.

Does Dogen mean mind and body are one and not two? Body dies and mind/spirit are not reincarnated into a new body? If so, what about Karma? Where is the cause effect relationship transmitted to? If nothing is permanent, where Karma fit in? There is nothing for Karma to be transmitted to. Confusing. I am just a dummy. Thoughts anyone?

Gassho, John

[Juki]

Rene Descartes postulated that the mind and body were separate entities, a school of thought which became known as dualism. Over time, the dualists were challenged bythe materialists, who argued that the mind was a part of the body. In 1949, British philosopher Gilbert Ryle scored a victory for the materialists when he ridiculed the dualist theory as "ghost in the machine" (which later became the title of an album by the band the Police).


I'm rambling here, but this is what your question reminded me of. My two cents? Mind is Buddha. Body is Buddha. Mindbody is Buddha.


Gassho

William

[Jishin]

I guess my question is regarding Karma. Effect=cause=effect=cause=all one, not two, all one and two at once, etc. Where does cause and effect of Karma play into all of this? Be good (or bad) in each cycle of birth and death until Nirvana? Where is is the good or bad of Karma posited if there is no self abiding self, just emptiness? Just a dummy asking.

Gassho, John

[alan.r]

I guess my question is regarding Karma. Effect=cause=effect=cause=all one, not two, all one and two at once, etc. Where does cause and effect of Karma play into all of this? Be good (or bad) in each cycle of birth and death until Nirvana? Where is is the good or bad of Karma posited if there is no self abiding self, just emptiness? Just a dummy asking.

Gassho, John

Uh, I think you're conflating universal and relative perspectives here. Karma is universal law, but only for the relative or little self. When Buddha became Buddha, it is my understanding he broke his karmic chain (or saw through it or was no longer subject to it or whatever). So, on the one hand (relatively), there is karma which we are subject to, and on the other hand (universal no-self), we are free from karma. On the one hand, we live in samsara, on the other hand, we are already in nirvana. So, again, the question seems to be conflating universal and relative stuff.

More directly though: we carry our Karma b/c we haven't let go of it. In other words, we carry our Karma b/c we believe it is our Karma, our stuff, it is actually our Self. Also, just as a body scars when a knife cuts deeply enough, the mind also scars and tracks are driven when we repeatedly get angry, greedy, etc.

I don't know. It's a tough question, but just look at your life. For me, my own habits are clearly the result of obvious cause and effect type stuff.

Gassho

[Jishin]

Uh, I think you're conflating universal and relative perspectives here. Karma is universal law, but only for the relative or little self. When Buddha became Buddha, it is my understanding he broke his karmic chain (or saw through it or was no longer subject to it or whatever). So, on the one hand (relatively), there is karma which we are subject to, and on the other hand (universal no-self), we are free from karma. On the one hand, we live in samsara, on the other hand, we are already in nirvana. So, again, the question seems to be conflating universal and relative stuff.

More directly though: we carry our Karma b/c we haven't let go of it. In other words, we carry our Karma b/c we believe it is our Karma, our stuff, it is actually our Self. Also, just as a body scars when a knife cuts deeply enough, the mind also scars and tracks are driven when we repeatedly get angry, greedy, etc.

I don't know. It's a tough question, but just look at your life. For me, my own habits are clearly the result of obvious cause and effect type stuff.

Gassho

Thanks for your imput. Just started to study a little more about Dogen and Buddhism. Hope to get it right-wrong one day.

Gassho, John

[Daitetsu]

Hi John,

"The Mind Itself is Buddha" is a chapter on Shobogenzo.

Does Dogen mean mind and body are one and not two? Body dies and mind/spirit are not reincarnated into a new body? If so, what about Karma? Where is the cause effect relationship transmitted to? If nothing is permanent, where Karma fit in? There is nothing for Karma to be transmitted to. Confusing. I am just a dummy. Thoughts anyone?

Just a few thoughts, (Jundo or Taigu will be better suited to answer) the following is just my interpretation of Zen/Buddhism:

There is no self, just synapses firing and thus creating thoughts. The thoughts create the illusion of an "I". There is just oneness/wholeness.
Like your right hand and your left foot - they are different, but they are not separate, they are just parts of a whole thing.

Furthermore, we must distinguish between rebirth and reincarnation. IMHO we are not reborn as another sentient being - after all there is no "I" that can be reborn.
However, reincarnation is like using a burning candle to light up another candle. Is the flame of the new candle the same of the first candle or different? (neither one nor the other)
When we die we dissolve into water, air, and all kinds of other stuff, so nothing disappears - we remain in the circle of everything. Perhaps we create a cloud that causes rain that will help to grow vegetables...
On the other hand we "die" and are "reborn" with every new moment. With everything you do, read, say, etc. you change something in your body (creating new synapses, forming new opinions, etc.), it's just constant change. Cells dying, new cells forming.

IMHO "karma" is just the everyday cause and effect - with my behavior I kind of create my environment. The reaction might not come right away, but some day. There is nothing magical about this. The karma might show its effect as a bad conscience for example.

Just some spontaneous thoughts...

Gassho,

Timo

[alan.r]

Thanks for your imput. Just started to study a little more about Dogen and Buddhism. Hope to get it right-wrong one day.

Gassho, John

No problem, and by no means am I right about this. As another says, Jundo and Taigu will know better.

As a side note: I tend to not worry about rebirth, self, etc. Seems like worrying about whether God or a Spaghetti monster exists.

Also, though, about mind and body: when something happens in the mind, body responds, too. Angry mind, angry thoughts, there will be a tense, rigid, angry body - this will color one's world. Let-go mind, calm, let-go body - and thus the world is this way. That, to me, is Karma. Also, happens to be basically the first verse of Dhammapada, I think

Gassho

[Jishin]

The mind itself is buddha

I am pretty ignorant, but is the point of this chapter "the mind itself is Buddha" is that everything is one undivided enchilada and mind cannot be separated from anything else? He brings this up on this chapter just to correct people who feel that mind/spirit go on when body dies? Just want to make sure I am understanding this chapter.

Gassho, John

[JohnsonCM]

I guess my question is regarding Karma. Effect=cause=effect=cause=all one, not two, all one and two at once, etc. Where does cause and effect of Karma play into all of this? Be good (or bad) in each cycle of birth and death until Nirvana? Where is is the good or bad of Karma posited if there is no self abiding self, just emptiness? Just a dummy asking.

Gassho, John

Mind and body are not two. Cant have one and not the other. But mind isn't body, and body isn't mind. But try to find where one ends and the other begins. A car with no driver is merely a chunk of lifeless metal, but the car doesn't take the karma of a hit-and-run to the junkyard.

[Jishin]

I understand it as one, body-mind, but I want to make sure I understand that's what dogen is teaching in this chapter, body-mind vs a separate body from mind. He is one confusing fellow.

Gassho, John.

[Amelia]

"Too many mind."

[Hans]

Hello,

we can never know what Dogen meant, because he's dead and we can't ask him anymore. What we can do is actualise his teachings in our life. Depending on our capacity and perspective as practitioners we might find road-maps using concepts like Karma etc. extremely helpful, and due to our body hardware we have to operate in dualistic terms, but that doesn't necessarily mean something is just body, just mind or just bodymind.

It's all in the Genjo-Koan

And the Genjo-Koan is no other than your life.

Looking at our tiny garden in a suburb of Cologne it is clear that some flower buds have yet to open, since the temperature is still too cold.
One cannot force any kind of realisation either. The egg of ignorance will crack from the inside when the chick hatches.

Trying to understand what Dogen is pointing to with our intellect is like trying to describe three dimensional structures in a 2D space....it might seem helpful, but then again it might make us think we've met the real dragon when we're really still "just" in our heads.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Daitetsu]

Thanks a lot, Hans!

Trying to understand what Dogen is pointing to with our intellect is like trying to describe three dimensional structures in a 2D space....it might seem helpful, but then again it might make us think we've met the real dragon when we're really still "just" in our heads.

I agree, it is not possible to describe this with our intellect/concepts/language alone. With our models/pointers there is always something missing.
Your statement made me think about the opening of the Tao te Ching:

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

Gassho,

Timo

[Jishin]

"That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening."

I will sit on my arse, burn my books, and realize the fundamental point!

"When dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it is already sufficient."

I will not sit on my arse and realize the fundamental point, but I will sit on my arse AND study to realize the fundamental point!

"If can be spoken, that's not it!" - Paraphrase of Dao # 1 (something like that)

Go figure, so confusing this business of being a Zen student, if that's what I am.

Thank you all for your kind input.

Gassho, John

[Matt J]

The Old Masters would say that "this mind is the Buddha" or something like that to people who are looking for Buddha elsewhere. A lot of people look for Buddha here and there, traveling all around the world, meeting many masters and different people, reading books, all looking for Buddha.

Here is master Ma Tsu babbling on about it:

http://www.dailyzen.com/zen/zen_reading0807.asp