Which of these two is correct Zazen?

[andyZ]

Thanks all. It helps.

The funny thing is all my questions come up only when I have a so called "bad meditation" which is usually the first one in the day. When the meditation is good, there is a sense of energy/concentration like thing and just sitting seems to be enough and all these questions don't matter.

I am considering this; how about doing my mantra meditation (same like the breath meditation) in the morning and evening which lasts for about 20 min each and then doing just sitting after a small break after each of those mantra meditations. Does anyone here do something like that? Like breath meditation followed by shikantaza everyday?

I don't think mixing is a good idea. If you're used to meditating with some kind of support, such as mantra or a breath it's more difficult to meditate with nothing to "rely" on after that, which shikantaza is in a way. At least that was my experience and I totally understand why Jundo is saying to use this in "emergencies" only.

[Jundo]

Hi SZ,

You still seem to have an idea about "good" and "bad" meditation, and achieving some sense of "energy/concentration".

You really really really need to get the following (link below) ... for "good" Zazen transcends "good and bad", while "bad" meditation is judging what's good and what's bad. Leap free of "good and bad", into something Good ... jump through the True Wordless Mantra that transcends "energy/concentration" or not, into a singularity so whole it can be either "concentrated" or "unconcentrated" in 84,000,000,000 pieces. Dogen called this "Zazen Samadhi", which is even wider than the states of concentration often thought of as "Samadhi", because it holds all the world and everything else, wholly and omitting nothing.

Right Zazen and Wrong Zazen

There is no way to do Zazen "wrong" ... even when you are doing it completely "wrong".

(That does not mean, though, that there is not a "right" and "wrong" way to "do" it).

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7573-SPECIAL-REPOST-Right-Zazen-and-Wrong-Zazen

Gassho, J

[MyoHo]

The funny thing is all my questions come up only when I have a so called "bad meditation" which is usually the first one in the day. When the meditation is good, there is a sense of energy/concentration like thing and just sitting seems to be enough and all these questions don't matter.

Hi guys,

OK, maybe very zenny but there is no good or bad sitting!
Personally I think the "bad" ones, the ones we relay need to apply ourselves, maybe the most productive sessions, because that's when we are in that "I don't know" state. Sometimes we may think: "this is not so good" but we should just sit and let it be. Measuring if it is good or waiting for the sitting to feel right, already is hunting for something, chasing the wind and not shikantaza. Sticking to something that feels right, is sticking too just like struggling to change something we feel is not so good. Just leave it there. Tomorrow or later today, sit again and notice the difference. Nothing changed, you did!

So just let this pass like a cloud in the sky I think, but that's just me

Gassho

Enkyo

[alan.r]

NOTHING IS EVER LACKING, EVER MISSING, EVER INCOMPLETE, EVER NOT FULLY HELD AND FULLY REALIZED IN A MOMENT OF ZAZEN![/b]

Yes, that is the thing. Thank you for the reminder Jundo.

Gassho

[YuimaSLC]

A teacher once described the mind that dwells on thoughts, worries, scenarios while sitting in zazen as "hitchhiking" rides on a cognitive highway.
One central advice was that it wasn't the aim of sitting to be continuously finding things to think about, to go on yet another "ride".
But, it's also not the aim to suppress thought and/or to beat yourself up (to whatever degree you wish to employ it) when you instantly wake up to knowing you've been on a ride. The waking up pretty much is it in terms of "what to do about it". There is...just takes care of it. There you are, just! sitting. And yeh, it's hard to use words like "you" because....there you go, a duality of you, the sitting, the environment of floor, wall, mat, clothing, breathing air.

Uchiyama Roshi describes this a bit in "Opening the Hand of Thought" p. 52 in a section called 'Waking up to Life' and I wish I could clip n paste, but can't.

[Myosha]

Don't just DO something, SIT there!^^

[Jundo]

Uchiyama Roshi describes this a bit in "Opening the Hand of Thought" p. 52 in a section called 'Waking up to Life' and I wish I could clip n paste, but can't.

This may do for some people:

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=fOU_1vlGN9UC&lpg=PA52&vq=waking%20up%20to%20life&pg=PA52#v=snippet&q=waking%20up%20to%20life%20&f=false

Those few pages (52 to 60) are one of the clearest descriptions of the internal experience of Shikantaza and "thinking-non-thinking".

Uchiyama Roshi was a "come back to the posture" fellow, and I emphasize more "come back to open spacious awareness of everything and nothing in particular" (and others might speak of breath or the "hara" or the like) ... but all the same really.

Gassho, J

[Zeno Nine]

I feel there are multiple descriptions of what Shikantaza is. I'm confused which one is accurate


Description 1:
Don't manipulate or control your awareness (attention) or any objects of awareness (breath, posture, mantra, present moment, emptiness etc...) in anyway. Let your awareness do whatever it needs to do. If your awareness/attention is caught up in thought, then that is where it needs to be at that moment. There is nothing wrong with it. Of course this doesn't mean we continue to think when we "realize we are caught up" (in other words, "the return happens"). If we continue to think, that will not be non-doing anymore. When the return happens, we just continue to sit. The important thing to remember here is that there is no preference given to "return" (or to being in the current moment) over getting lost in thoughts. It is complete no-preference sitting and trusting that awareness goes and does where it needs to go or what it needs to do. No manipulating or directing awareness. As Genpo Roshi says this essential non-doing and utter freedom of Shikantaza wears down the mind.


Description 2:
Sit and aim at returning to the present moment or posture. When you realize the present moment is not being attended to, then get back to the present moment or posture briefly and then continue to sit. We don't focus or try to stay on the posture or present moment. When "the return happens" we just briefly check the posture or attend to the current moment and then continue to sit silently. Zazen is not staying in the moment or with the posture but this returning again and again is itself Zazen.


Which one is the correct description and why do you think so?

I agree with Dosho. "To seek great mind with thinking mind is certainly a grave mistake."