Back pain during Zazen

[Jakugan]

Hello everyone.

I was wondering if anyone else suffered back pain during Zazen?
I'm usually OK when I sit for a short time but when I sit for over fifteen minutes I start to get pain in my upper back mainly and my neck sometimes.
Does anyone have any posture tips for what I might be doing wrong?

Gassho,

Simon.

[Kyonin]

Hi Simon,

In my humble experience, there are some things that we may do or oversee without realizing.

-Check your zafu's inclination. I found that when I don't properly adjust it, my back suffers.

-Check your zafu for small bumps and try to straighten them.

-Maybe you are trying to be too straight? Try to relax a bit.

-Check your legs. Maybe they are too tense in order to keep you balanced.

-See if your neck and shoulders aren't too tight.

Hope this helps.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Jakugan]

Hi Kyonin,

Thanks for the advice. . I shall try it next time. I think another problem may be that I haven't actually purchased a Zafu yet. At the moment, when I sit Zazen I sit on two pillows stacked on top of each other (although I have also experience back pain when sitting on an actual Zafu). Perhaps that is one reason for my discomfort?
I think I'm probably a little bit too tense sometimes when I sit (especially when sitting Google + in front of other people!). I shall try to be more relaxed next time.

Gassho,

Simon

[RichardH]

Hi Simon. I just listened to this talk posted by Taigu http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...m-Issho-Fujita . It gets straight at that.


Gassho
Daizan

[Daitetsu]

Very good advice by Kyonin and Daizan here!
Even a small thing can lead to a kind of "chain reaction" in the body that leads to back pain or another problem.

Perhaps you could also do a short body scan after the first five minutes to identify any tensions in your body. You might be surprised.
It was just yesterday when I sat at my desk (during work, not zazen) when I realized how tense my facial muscles were; really tense for no reason. So now I do a quick body scan at my desk now and then to see if this is the case and relax. You could try that in the next few days when you sit, although it is a short interruption.

Gassho,

Timo

[MyoHo]

I think not having a zafu is the problem?

Your pelvis is probably not in the ideal position, so your back muscles are forced to compensate? The zafu does that for you. As I understand it the center of gravity must be in the abdomen region. What happens if you completey relax, suddenly? Do you fall backwards? Try to sense after ten minutes if your head is tipping? Your ears should naturaly be perpendicular to your shoulders ( or as far as possible).

Hope it helps?

Enkyo

[Taigu]

It is typical misuse. Go Fujita, go Alexander, go Pilates, explore how much you overdo things and then stop.

The back should not ache in sitting.

Gassho


Taigu

[Myoku]

relax, Simon,
easy said, not so easy as long as you not even feel where you are tense.
Having said this I'm quite tense, I used to have back pain too, more than
15 minutes it used to start, zazenkai was terrible for the back. These days
I'm a bit better, mainly thanks to Taigu, teaching the un-doing, the un-correcting,
just allowing the body to come to its natural position. I used to over-correct
(or actually correcting already is too much, just allowing), pushing myself
into a tense sitting. As you said yourself, relax is the most important. As
others said, the sitting height matters too, experiment with height. And
watch the sitting videos here at treeleaf, e.g. starting at

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8919-Sikantaza-1

Gassho
Myoku

[Jakugan]

Thanks for everyone's advice. I didn't know there were so many different angles to look at it from.

Gassho,

Simon

[Kyonin]

I think another problem may be that I haven't actually purchased a Zafu yet. At the moment, when I sit Zazen I sit on two pillows stacked on top of each other

I have also don't have a zafu! Y use a folded sleeping mat as zabuton and 3 folded blankets as zafu. That's because I'm a tall guy and all zafus here are made for short people. With blankets I can adjust the height to whatever I'm comfortable with.

I have been sitting on my blankets longer than I remember (10+ years) and I haven't had a problem so far. I found that pillows are too unstable!

BTW, I'm in the process of having a zafu custom made.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[ZenHarmony]

I have a zafu I've made myself, stuffed with buckwheat hulls, but Myoku is right, Taigu's talk on body position is what stopped me from hurting so much. It's either the "Sikantaza 1" or it's "How to use a Zafu"

Gassho,

Lisa

[Jishin]

I have 3 zafus, 3 zabutons and 2 seiza benches. I tried to use various zafus because I felt the need to do things right but I am too used up to sit on anything but a seiza bench. I have read in the forums that other members use seiza benches too. That makes me feel I am not such a wimp for using a bench. My back likes it so I am sticking to it!

Gassho, John

[Jakugan]

I listened to the Fujita link yesterday. A lot of his emphasis seems to be on having the correct natural posture during Zazen. Should the same attitude/posture carry over into the rest of our everyday lives or is this just for sitting?


Gassho,

Simon

[Jakugan]

Try to rest your hands on a big towel or something like that. When you have upper back, shoulder and neck pain, it often stems from your hands kind of suspended and thus putting strain and pulling on the back and neck. I think if you set your hands on something, it will ease the pressure and the strain.
Gassho,
Jenell

I hadn't thought about it but I always tend to have my elbows kind of pointing out rigidly, which does actually make my hands a bit suspended (kind of the posture the AZI told me to adopt when I once went to one of their lessons). I'll try a towel and see if that's any better.

Gassho,

Simon

[Emmet]

Try to rest your hands on a big towel or something like that. When you have upper back, shoulder and neck pain, it often stems from your hands kind of suspended and thus putting strain and pulling on the back and neck. I think if you set your hands on something, it will ease the pressure and the strain.
Gassho,
Jenell

To expand upon what Jenell suggested, try moving your hands in close to your belly. If they're too far out in your lap, often people feel acute pain right between the shoulder blades.