Originally posted by Jenell
By the way, "non-attached" is not "attached". But "non-attached" is also not necessarily "unattached".
Gassho, J
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Be non-attached to it!
By the way, "non-attached" is not "attached". But "non-attached" is also not necessarily "unattached".
Gassho, JLast edited by Jundo; 03-04-2013, 02:31 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE -
Hi Matt,
Who ever said that there is "nothing to find" in, through and as this practice of "not seeking", no place to "get", no treasure to snare at the end of the rainbow?
Not me. I never would say such a thing. Then why pursue this path?
Who ever said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.
What's more, this practice lets us be happy, joyful. Who said not? Not me.
Ya really got to pay attention to what is being said. You see:
Just because we are "not seeking" does not mean we are "not seeking" ... nor that there aren't wondrous marvels thus to find!
Enlightenment!
HOWEVER, radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!
ALL THAT, even as we continue to move forward, make choices, have preferences ... LIVE! Moving forward, yet as still and unmoving as a mountain or a stone ... having choices and preferences while choices and preferences are fully dropped, and we drop all demands to get somewhere ... living passionately, yet not a prisoner of passions ... at once, the still mountains walking, the stone women dancing ...
We fix what needs to be fixed .. in this world, in our life ... all without thought of something to repair. We clean what needs to be cleaned ... the messes and disasters and filthy oil spills ... yet there is no "clean" or "dirty".
GOT HOW THAT WORKS?
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-ENLIGHTENMENT
Dear Jundo,
I am very impressed by the intensity of discussion. There are some few things I cannot bring together.
Maybe you have an idea how to do it. It fits a just a little in that thread, but it does not fit anywhere?
So, the idea why I started zazen was to make my life ethical better, calmer, prepar for the end of the day,
somehow there is a wish in me (like in many people I know) to do my best in my life.
The philosophical part of zazen is clear. No goal, no judgements, just sitting, no enlightenment......
Somehow, starting the process, I think about how it goes. And....there is no idea how to give an answer.
So, your comment was exactly why I post my questions here:
What is - if there is - the obvious evidence, that why we do zazen is coming closer?
How can I bring together - the "nice experiences" I have during zazen -
and the overall reason to sit?
Gassho
ErnstComment
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Hi Ernst,
I am going to respond to your questions here and on the other thread today ...
I will try to answer as best I can.
Who said their is no "satori" or "enlightenment" as our orientation? Not me! Of course there is! But some Treasures are found right here all along, by radically giving up the chase after them. In the chase, we miss the obvious ... like the dog who chases his tail ...
As I always write ...
Of course, even though there is "nothing to change" ... that does not mean there is "nothing to change".radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!
Yes, Buddhism may help you relax, happier and be healthier. But there are times in life that will be stressful, very sad ... and we all get sick, old and die (even the Buddha). What do you do then? True Buddhist Practice allows us to be One and Whole even with all that ... young/old, sick/healthy, peace/crisis, happy day/sad day, etc.Perhaps a fellow sits down to Zazen for the first time who is a violent man, a thief and alcoholic. He hears that “all is Buddha just as it is“, so thinks that Zen practice means “all is a jewel just as it is, so thus maybe I can simply stay that way, just drink and beat my wife and rob strangers“. Well, no, because while a thief and wife-beater is just that … a thief and wife-beater, yet a Buddha nonetheless … still, someone filled with such anger and greed and empty holes to fill in their psyche is not really “at peace with how things are” (or he would not beat and steal and need to self-medicate). In other words, he takes and craves and acts out anger and frustration because he does not truly understand “peace with this life as it is” … because if he did, he would not need to be those violent, punishing ways.
If the angry, violent fellow truly knew “completeness“, truly had “no hole in need of filling“, “nothing lacking” everything “complete just as it is” … well, he simply would not have need to do violence, steal and take drugs to cover his inner pain.
You see … kind of a non-self-fulfilling Catch-22.
Thus, our “goalless sitting” in Zazen is –not– merely sitting on our butts, self-satisfied, feeling that we “just have to sit here and we are Buddha“. Far from it. It is, instead, to-the-marrow dropping of all need and lack. That is very different. Someone’s “just sitting around” doing nothing, going no where, complacent or resigned, giving up, killing time, is not in any way the same as “Just Sitting” practice wherein nothing need be done, with no where that we can go or need go, for all is faced ‘head on’ and energetically as already whole and complete … even while we realize that the choices we make in life have consequences, that how we choose to walk the walk in this life, and the directions we choose to go, do make a difference!
Yes, there is "right and wrong" Zazen. It largely involves transcending "right and wrong".
Right Zazen and Wrong Zazen
As to Sesshin ... there is no goal, and we drop all measure of "long and short" time. But sometimes sitting a long time helps us realize that "no goal, no long or short time" deeply.
Yes, many "non-self-fulfilling Catch-22".
I hope that helps. Hans Mongen, our German and Dutch speaker, has offered to help you get past some of the language too if a little confusing.
Gassho, JundoLast edited by Jundo; 03-04-2013, 04:59 PM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Thank you, the answer is clearing some thoughts. And yes, I think I got the sesshin issue.
just one point I would like to repeat: What is - if there is - the obvious evidence, that why we do zazen is coming closer?
I do not think, that I want to get health from zazen, and I agree with your example of the alcoholic.
That is a trend also here in Europa to do meditation to relax or to bring the blood-pressure down. It is not how I think about it.
But a good begin, I thought.
thank you,
Gassho
ErnstComment
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Thank you for this teaching, Jundo.
Gassho,
KyoninHondō Kyōnin
奔道 協忍Comment
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Yes, I will try.
The kind of how the blue sky appears and the clouds come is today different then it was the first time.
When thoughts come I can look at them without getting to much in them, I would say, that is one evidence I ment, isn´t it?
Another could be, that I sit down and after some minutes I can be in a "slow motion". That is another one?
But if I sit in the train or in my wonderful garden and with many birds I do not stay in any kind I mentioned above.
I always see something moving or I hear birds or I do not find a place. I said to my partner, that I am not
good still. That is maybe the reason. So, I thought: there is a improvement in a certain way.
I just wanted to ask, if there are some of these evidences...I hope, I could ask it better.
Gassho
ErnstComment
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Hi Ernst,
I will ask Hans (Mongen) to write you, as I really want you to express what you wish to say, and he can maybe advise you. Gassho, JALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Yes, maybe it is a question of language.
A last example: Muho has said, that he is not sitting so much zazen, becourse he is already able to
do zazen also when he works. That is, what I meant. He has already the ability to do that. So, this sounds like beeing "better".
Also the teacher thing with the video. There is a difference between me (three years sitting) and you as a teacher (xx years sitting)?
That is what I want to ask.Comment
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Hi Ernst,
I sometimes say that everything in life is Zazen in its wide meaning ... working in the garden or office, changing the baby diaper. However, only seated Zazen is Zazen ... and thus we sit each day Zazen.
I am not sure when Mujo made that quote about "not sitting so much", because his temple Antaiji is famous for sitting to a number of hours (and little else besides some physical labor ... no lectures, no ceremonies) that even puts most Japanese temples to shame. I actually think it might be "too much" sitting, although to each their own.
I sometimes say that there is no "getting better" in this Practice, yet we get better (Zen folks see things many ways). There is no place to go, and we get someplace. How do you know if it is getting better? You know from you own life (not unlike how someone knows if their marriage is working. You know because you can see).
Is someone sitting three days or three years not as advanced as someone sitting 30 years? Well, the three days person is Buddha, and the 30 year person is 30 year Buddha. There is no place to go, because the whole path from beginning to end is Buddha .... Buddha walking Buddha. Nonetheless, the 30 years person probably has a lot more experience and mastery of the Practice and the Path.
I hope I answered your questions.
Gassho, JALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Hi guys,
Maybe I can help? Reading these posts it just struck me that maybe Ernst means to ask if there are signs, small noticeable changes in our actions or the perception of things as a direct result of Zazen, we can look for? Signs that the Practice is bearing some noticeable fruit and some measurement of progress can be made?
Quoting Ernst here: "I always see something moving or I hear birds or I do not find a place. I said to my partner, that I am not
good still. That is maybe the reason. So, I thought: there is a improvement in a certain way.
I just wanted to ask, if there are some of these evidences...I hope, I could ask it better."
Hope I'm not interfering? Does this help at all Ernst?
Gassho
EnkyoMuComment
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I think there are! Oh, even though "Zazen is useless" as Taigu so rightly reminds us, that does not mean that "Zazen is useless"! We Zen folks are always talking out of both sides of our no sided mouth!
I would say the best practical test for this Zen Way is when the "rubber meets the road" in life ... facing illness, the loss of someone we love, sitting in the hospital intensive care unit with my daughter, being in a traffic accident or simply stuck in a traffic jam, dealing with "difficult people", facing a disappointment in life, facing the great earthquake and nuclear disaster here or whatever good or bad weather comes ... etc. etc. ...
... one finds oneself "seeing through" the events more and more to something without conflict and disturbance (even amid the terribleness of the moment) ...
... one finds oneself reacting to things a bit differently, more accepting and yielding (even as we simultaneously might not yield in the least, for we can yield and not yield AT ONCE, AS ONE!) ...
... and I find myself reacting and handing events, seeing them very differently then I might have 30 years ago when I began this Way of No Way.
For me, that is the litmus test in daily life. There is no "payoff" in Zen ... for we realize that the Treasure has been here all along.
Gassho, JALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Thank you Enkyo, this is very closed to what I mean. And thank you Jundo, this is an answer. I understand your daily life signs.
I just wanted to know the same in the sitting situation.
gassho
ErnstComment
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Here is my "litmus test" for "right Zazen" and "wrong Zazen" ... read the full essay and description at the link, but it closes:
Thus, allowing things to just be the way they are, no judging, not resisting, being with the flow, allowing 'happy' days to be happy and 'sad' days to be sad, all while dropping all idea of 'happy' and 'sad', whether really enjoying or really not enjoying ... fully dropping away any and all thought of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING IT RIGHT. And when you are doing it right, it will usually feel like you are doing it right, for there is no resistance, and a great sense of balance, insight and brilliance..
Fighting things, wishing things were some other way that how they are, judging, resisting, going against the grain and the flow, wishing 'sad' days were happy or 'happy' days were happier ... filled with a sense of self bumping up against all the other 'selfs', with a mind held by thoughts of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING ZAZEN WRONG. And when you are doing it wrong, it will usually feel like you are doing it wrong, for there is resistance, and a sense of imbalance, cloudiness, greyness.
But as well, even at those times when Zazen feels 'wrong', when there is resistance or imbalance ... it is still 'right', still 'Zazen', still just what it is. IT CANNOT BE WRONG. This last point is vital to understanding.
Yes, that is a Koan. Is it clear? Please really really penetrate in your body and mind what I just wrote.
Gassho, JALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Dear Jundo,
thank you a lot. I hope, I´ve got it.
There are always doubts in me, sometimes more, sometimes less. I had always the feeling,
that this are the reason, why I want to improve or develop.
Here it is not so helpfull, as I can see.
But to change this patterns is not soo easy.
And the very very details during zazen, what means to be in a samaddhi is not a very big issue for you....
I thought, to know that helps a lot. ......
I will really do it:
and I think, that helps a lot.Please really really penetrate in your body and mind what I just wrote
thank you
gassho
ernst
ps:I posted already an answer, but it is lost in cyberspace....
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