Lotus Sutra

[Mujin]

I am reading the Lotus Sutra, and am confused with something. It is the part where the Buddha predicts Sariputra's future Buddhahood. Then Indra and others praise how the Buddha once again turned the Wheel of Dharma. What Dharma? He was just praising Sariputra and telling of his future, what did I miss?

Gassho,

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

[Kotei]

Hi Mujin,

I am understanding it in a way that might be related to the "one vehicle" teaching of the Lotus Sutra.
That the disciples believed that their attainment of arhatship, liberation from samsara was the final goal.
Predicting the future Buddhahood of Sariputra reveals that those who had thought they had reached a "lesser" goal are ultimately destined for Buddhahood.
The three vehicles śrāvaka, pratyekabuddha, and bodhisattva as skillful means, all converging in the one true vehicle of Buddhahood.
Another turning of the Dharma Wheel, because a deeper truth has been disclosed?

Hmm... something like that?
Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Jundo]

He also predicted Mujin and Kotei's Buddhahood.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Houzan]

I recently read the Lotus Sutra myself. Quite the read and the book “visions of awakening space and time” is a great companion book. Maybe all the predictions of future Buddhahood can be read as skillful means to help them let go of chasing after “final liberation”. I mean, if it’s all decided and so far into the future, what else to do than just practice (thus actualizing final liberation)

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Jundo]

I found an interpretation by a Tendai teacher that very much agrees with what Kotei described ...

The scene and action of Chapter 3 ... Shakyamuni Buddha has just presented the teaching on Skillful Means and made a general prediction that all would become Buddhas in the future. At the opening of this new chapter, Shariputra, the Buddha’s foremost disciple, expresses his great joy at this news, recounting how he had previously grieved over his belief that he was to be denied the complete teachings that he saw being offered to the bodhisattvas—the followers of the Buddha Vehicle as described in the last chapter, whose culmination was complete Buddhahood. As a shravaka, a follower of the first vehicle, Shariputra believed the culmination of his own spiritual journey was limited to nirvana, which Shakyamuni has just said was incomplete. But now Shakyamuni reveals that he has led and inspired Shariputra, and by extension all the shravakas, for countless eons in previous lives using the method of skillful means to enable him to rid himself of desire and suffering. In fact, Shakyamuni reminds Shariputra that in the past he had already predicted Buddhahood for him, but that he had simply ‘forgotten it.’ When Shakyamuni says that he teaches only bodhisattvas and not shravakas, it is not because shravakas are to be denied because of their shravaka-status, but that the shravakas are bodhisattvas-in-fact who are merely unaware of their bodhisattva-status.

Gassho, J
stlah

[ssalamena]

I found an interpretation by a Tendai teach that very much agrees with what Kotei described ...





Gassho, J
stlah

Hello Jundo/everyone!
Thanks for posting this and for the replies.
Please let me know if I am wrong here:
I see that the Lotus Sutra states that the Eternal Buddha awakened at some point ages ago and is intentionally trying to find ways for everyone to become enlightened, by using various skillful means.
He is presented as a saviour who acts with intention, however it seems to me that this clashes with the soto zen view.
Did Master Dōgen believe that there is a Buddha that is consciously and intentionally trying to help us?
Unless... the Eternal Buddha's intention to save us is that irresistible desire/force we all have to be really happy, and that we can reach only by realising that we are all like waves in the Ocean (the Eternal Buddha) and therefore the Ocean itself.
In Shikantaza we can actualise this.
Can you please tell me if I am twisting the teaching or I am completely off the mark?
Thank you !

Gassho
Sat lah

[Jundo]

Hello Jundo/everyone!
Thanks for posting this and for the replies.
Please let me know if I am wrong here:
I see that the Lotus Sutra states that the Eternal Buddha awakened at some point ages ago and is intentionally trying to find ways for everyone to become enlightened, by using various skillful means.
He is presented as a saviour who acts with intention, however it seems to me that this clashes with the soto zen view.
Did Master Dōgen believe that there is a Buddha that is consciously and intentionally trying to help us?
Unless... the Eternal Buddha's intention to save us is that irresistible desire/force we all have to be really happy, and that we can reach only by realising that we are all like waves in the Ocean (the Eternal Buddha) and therefore the Ocean itself.
In Shikantaza we can actualise this.
Can you please tell me if I am twisting the teaching or I am completely off the mark?
Thank you !

Gassho
Sat lah

Master Dogen certainly felt that there is something about the universe trying to help and free us, if we let it. Yes. He would have considered that there is a natural Wisdom and Compassion that is built into the fabric or reality, somehow embodied as the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, and they are trying to help us in this way. We access that help through our practice.

Now, no Buddha, Bodhisattva or Ancestor will change a flat tire on your car, pick up your kids from school, or cure your bad tooth (you need a dentist for that.) So, the kind of help they offer is of a certain kind. Personally, I take the "cosmic" Buddhas and Bodhisattvas more as symbols for some true powers and potentials in our own heart and in the world, rather than literal beings in some literal other world. However, they are always preaching Wisdom and Compassion to us if we can hear. Zazen and all our practice lets us hear.

Nor do I think that they will always make us "happy." I do not think that Zen necessarily seeks for us to always be "happy." Life is not always happy. So, I usually say something like, when we realize ourselves as "waves that are the ocean, ocean that is the waves," we flow with life ... even if the ocean is sometimes stormy, sad, a bit scary too. It is more a contentment and equanimity, a "happy to NOT be happy always."

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Houzan]

Hello Jundo/everyone!
Thanks for posting this and for the replies.
Please let me know if I am wrong here:
I see that the Lotus Sutra states that the Eternal Buddha awakened at some point ages ago and is intentionally trying to find ways for everyone to become enlightened, by using various skillful means.
He is presented as a saviour who acts with intention, however it seems to me that this clashes with the soto zen view.
Did Master Dōgen believe that there is a Buddha that is consciously and intentionally trying to help us?
Unless... the Eternal Buddha's intention to save us is that irresistible desire/force we all have to be really happy, and that we can reach only by realising that we are all like waves in the Ocean (the Eternal Buddha) and therefore the Ocean itself.
In Shikantaza we can actualise this.
Can you please tell me if I am twisting the teaching or I am completely off the mark?
Thank you !

Gassho
Sat lah

My understanding of the Lotus Sutra is not developed, but it was such a rewarding read that I’d like
to join in if I may. Maybe Kotei and Jundo can correct me so I’ll learn some more I probably read this somewhere, but the sutra itself can maybe be seen as skillful means. Instead of discussing zazen and zazen mind in a straightforward manner, the sutra tells these amazing stories and parables, all amazing but from slightly different angles, but all chapters really about the same zazen and zazen mind, or maybe to motivate for zazen and zazen mind. So I imagine Dogen to view the Lotus Sutra as an artistic expression, not as literal claims (although I understand he did believe in spirits and similar, so he might put more into the sutra than what I imagine).

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Jundo]

Hi Hozan,

I do not believe that the Lotus Sutra really focuses on Zazen very much directly although meditation (dhyāna) is mentioned various places. Meditation is mentioned in the Lotus just as one of the several practices and attributes of the sincere Buddhist. It certainly teaches various lessons on Wisdom and Compassion through parables. Master Dogen loved the Lotus Sutra since his days as a Tendai Buddhist monk, before he became a Zen fellow, and danced with its stories and lessons all his life, and throughout sections of Shobogenzo.

Kotei recently made a close study of the Lotus Sutra, so I am going to pass this discussion on to him, as he just spent many weeks with the text (and with Taigen Leighton's book on Dogen and the Lotus Sutra). Kotei dove in deep.

Kotei, any insights on this?

Gassho, Jundo

[Houzan]

Hi Hozan,

I do not believe that the Lotus Sutra really focuses on Zazen very much directly although meditation (dhyāna) is mentioned various places. Meditation is mentioned in the Lotus just as one of the several practices and attributes of the sincere Buddhist. It certainly teaches various lessons on Wisdom and Compassion through parables. Master Dogen loved the Lotus Sutra since his days as a Tendai Buddhist monk, before he became a Zen fellow, and danced with its stories and lessons all his life, and throughout sections of Shobogenzo.

Kotei recently made a close study of the Lotus Sutra, so I am going to pass this discussion on to him, as he just spent many weeks with the text (and with Taigen Leighton's book on Dogen and the Lotus Sutra). Kotei dove in deep.

Kotei, any insights on this?

Gassho, Jundo

Thank you. And would be very grateful for Kotei’s take as well When I say zazen I mean the genjo koan - the experiencing life beyond distinctions and emptiness. I read the amazing stories in the sutra as somehow pointing to the same “great wonder” and magic of everything being just as it is, even when the universe is sad, painful and unfair. But, I’m aware I might be putting too much into it - a hypothesis without too much basis.

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[ssalamena]

Master Dogen certainly felt that there is something about the universe trying to help and free us, if we let it. Yes. He would have considered that there is a natural Wisdom and Compassion that is built into the fabric or reality, somehow embodied as the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, and they are trying to help us in this way. We access that help through our practice.

Now, no Buddha, Bodhisattva or Ancestor will change a flat tire on your car, pick up your kids from school, or cure your bad tooth (you need a dentist for that.) So, the kind of help they offer is of a certain kind. Personally, I take the "cosmic" Buddhas and Bodhisattvas more as symbols for some true powers and potentials in our own heart and in the world, rather than literal beings in some literal other world. However, they are always preaching Wisdom and Compassion to us if we can hear. Zazen and all our practice lets us hear.

Nor do I think that they will always make us "happy." I do not think that Zen necessarily seeks for us to always be "happy." Life is not always happy. So, I usually say something like, when we realize ourselves as "waves that are the ocean, ocean that is the waves," we flow with life ... even if the ocean is sometimes stormy, sad, a bit scary too. It is more a contentment and equanimity, a "happy to NOT be happy always."

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Thank you Jundo!
I complete agree with you (boring I know).
I am just not sure about that intentionality...
The Lotus Sutra is definitely the most intriguing buddhist sutra I know! Hard to understand too.

Gassho
Sat lah

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo!
I complete agree with you (boring I know).
I am just not sure about that intentionality...
The Lotus Sutra is definitely the most intriguing buddhist sutra I know! Hard to understand too.

Gassho
Sat lah

I always suggest to take the wild Mahayana Sutras something like Lord of the Rings or, even better, C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia ...

Namely, imaginative fantasies, with wild special effects and amazing creatures, all to convey profound spiritual and philosophical meanings. They are "True" in that they convey profound Truths about the human and universal condition using incredible symbolism. C.S. Lewis did much the same for Christian theology ...

One of the most significant themes seen in C. S. Lewis's The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe is Christianity. Various aspects of characters and events in the novel reflect biblical ideas from Christianity. The lion Aslan is one of the clearest examples, as his death is very similar to that of Jesus Christ. While many readers made this connection, Lewis denied that the themes of Christianity were intentional, saying that his writing began by picturing images of characters, and the rest just came about through the writing process. While Lewis denied intentionally making the story a strictly Christian theological novel, he did admit that it could help young children accept Christianity into their lives when they were older. LINK

Also ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Middle-earth

These characters, like Gandolf the Good and Frodo (and yes, the "hungry ghost" Golum) are as real as real can be with regard to human Wisdom and weakness, good and evil.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Kotei]

Kotei, any insights on this?

The Lotus as skillful means itself?

There are the wild stories of Bodhisattvas emerging from the earth or the otherworldly flying stupas, but I wouldn't call them skillful means, but parables... teaching stories.

Some Mahajana schools like Tendai and Nichiren would deny that the Lotus is skillful means, I think.
Some, if not many? east asian schools argue that the Lotus is THE final, ultimate teaching.
They hold it at the apex of Buddha's teachings. Nichiren declared it the one true scripture.
From that perspective, it is not skillful means. It is the unveiling of the truth behind all other upaya.

On the other hand, it teaches that some earlier doctrines were skillful means, like the distinction between śrāvaka, pratyekabuddha, and bodhisattva paths.
And one could ask how this is with the Lotus itself.
Some modern (critical-historical) scholars do view it as upaya.
It is thought that it arose to address the concerns of Mahayana communities, especially to reconcile why śrāvakas and arhats, who seemed to reach a “final goal” should still be considered part of the Mahayana.
The promise that they too will become Buddhas functions as a unifying and legitimizing teaching device.
Paul Williams ("Mahayana Buddhism") and Lopez ("The Lotus Sutra") both discuss the Lotus in this light.
As a text that itself employs upaya in presenting an inclusive, universal path.
From a historical standpoint Mahayana Sutras can often be seen as rhetorical strategies to inspire faith, authority and unity in communities, scholars like Jan Nattier and Gregory Schopen wrote.

The lotus claims to be the final truth. But on another level, even this final truth may be skillful means, pedagogical and rhetorical "meta-upaya", as the Buddha's teachings seem to be always context-responsive.
Hmm.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Hoshuku]

I found an interpretation by a Tendai teacher that very much agrees with what Kotei described ...





Gassho, J
stlah

Love that summary.

Bows
Hoshuku
Satlah

[ssalamena]

Hello friends,

Years ago I was lucky enough to study the Lotus Sutra with an amazing priest in the Nichiren Shu, the oldest and more mainstream / non sectarian Nichiren school.
My understanding is that Nichiren Shonin saw the Lotus Sutra as the highest and most complete expression of the Dharma, and chanting Namu Myoho Renge Kyo as an actualisation of the non dual Dharmakaya, a clever way to make it practical for everyone.
Chanting was therefore also the expression of the 3 truths described by Tiantai.
Despite the obvious differences in method and approach with master Dogen, isn't this similar to the practice of shikantaza, which is also an expression of the Absolute?
I hope I am making sense, please correct me if I am wrong with this.

Gassho
Sat lah
Stefano