A beginner’s dilemma with a chattering mind

[Jundo]

Very true...I guess that part of the problem is that we become obsessed with trying control the chatter in our minds.
On the other hand by becoming mere observers of our thoughts without grasping, we can let them arise and disappear.

Such wonderful Teachers in this thread, including you for yourself above. Good advice!

I would just underline the difference between trying to have no thoughts or be free of "mental chatter" ... and simply not getting caught up and tangled in thoughts, stirring them up ... having thoughts and emotions, and learning to see through them in clarity at the same time.

This talk in the Beginners Series was the best introduction I could come up with for our approach to thoughts and emotions in Zazen (although actually an ancient way of describing such in the Zen world) ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7698-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-VIII%29

As to breath counting or following, I say this ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7695-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XI%29

Gassho, Jundo

[Jinyo]

For me the one message that changed everything (without changing anything) was when a friend said .."It's not about having an experience, but whatever experience is present, as such." Whatever state of being, physical, mental, emotional, I wake up with,... is what sits on the cushion, busy, calm, happy, crappy, snarly. Sitting that, as that.. alone. The present state, precisely as is, alone, is unconditioned peace in/as/of any condition. A busy mind as busy mind, a calm mind as calm mind. It took a long time to give up the peace project and just sit.

Gassho, kojip

So true Kojip - the 'peace project' really got in the way for me. Now. I'm content to sit with whatever comes up.

Gassho

Willow

[adrianbkelly]

Great advice from everyone! After years of trying to quiet my mind & attain some "special" level of consciousness (& eventually giving up!), it was a relief & a revelation to just sit with & accept all that happens.

_/\_
Ade

[Jundo]

Great advice from everyone! After years of trying to quiet my mind & attain some "special" level of consciousness (& eventually giving up!), it was a relief & a revelation to just sit with & accept all that happens.

_/\_
Ade

Just sitting with and radically accepting all that happens ... not looking for change, letting what is ... not getting tangled in or stirring up what is ...

... changes everything. Counter-intuitive, but so. The result is a most "special" level of consciousness, for the "self's selfishnessness" is shown the exit.

The less we try or need to get somewhere ... the more we get somewhere that can only be reached be dropping the hunt.

Gassho, J

[Jigetsu]

My mind is still what they refer to in the Zen industry as "monkey mind" when I sit. Over time I've learned to abstract myself from the chattering by becoming more of a passive observer. Still chatty none the less!

I tried to change it many times when I first started sitting, but spend anytime around Treeleaf and you'll learn that just sitting with what is, nothing to add, nothing to take away really is the goal of the goalless goal.

Man. I love our Zen double speak.

Just Sit!

[Kiki]

Learned much from this thread! Thank you all!

Gassho
Kia

[Toun]

This talk in the Beginners Series was the best introduction I could come up with for our approach to thoughts and emotions in Zazen (although actually an ancient way of describing such in the Zen world) ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7698-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-VIII%29

As to breath counting or following, I say this ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7695-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XI%29

Gassho, Jundo

Thank you Jundo.

I went back to the Beginners Series and read the suggested threads. It answered many of my questions concerning the practice of Zazen. I will definitely go back to them as I practice!

Also, thanks to everyone for the great feedback and for sharing your personal experiences in this thread.

Gassho,
Mike

[Dosho]

Mike,

Don't always go looking for answers...there may not be any. That's when things can get tough when I'm sitting. You have to let go of wanting answers to find answers.

Just sit. No, really, just sit. Yeah, I really mean it, go sit. I literally mean "just sit".

Gassho,
Dosho

P.S. Just sit.

[Toun]

Mike,

Don't always go looking for answers...there may not be any. That's when things can get tough when I'm sitting. You have to let go of wanting answers to find answers.

Just sit. No, really, just sit. Yeah, I really mean it, go sit. I literally mean "just sit".

Gassho,
Dosho

P.S. Just sit.

Gassho
Mike

[Ed]

Thanks for the practice. Stay with it.

[jeff_u]

Once I asked a teacher about my problems controlling my breathing while doing breath counting and the like. I felt like I was always tense, holding my breath, didn't feel quite right. I was reminded that, "you shouldn't try to breathe, just be breathed."

Of course I am constantly forgetting this teaching and find myself trying to control things (especially that chattering mind!), but at least I remember it sometimes.

[Jundo]

Once I asked a teacher about my problems controlling my breathing while doing breath counting and the like. I felt like I was always tense, holding my breath, didn't feel quite right. I was reminded that, "you shouldn't try to breathe, just be breathed."

Of course I am constantly forgetting this teaching and find myself trying to control things (especially that chattering mind!), but at least I remember it sometimes.

That is very nice.

Don't try to sit, just be sat ... just be sitting ... just sit being ... Just-Sitbeing.

Gassho, J

[bayamo]

Jundo made a blog post some time back that helped me with this. I can't remember the title but it had to do with clouds, that someone mentioned previously. Just let the thoughts, like clouds, just drift through.

[Hans]

Hello,

it is important to not mistake the method for idealised and mostly imaginary results. Our method is Zazen (actually a non-method ultimately....but let's not get carried away), the result is being aware, awake and present with whatever arises. "Whatever" includes the chattering mind.

The word "practise" includes the recurring fact of making mistakes.

Just stick with it.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Risho]

Hello,

it is important to not mistake the method for idealised and mostly imaginary results. Our method is Zazen (actually a non-method ultimately....but let's not get carried away), the result is being aware, awake and present with whatever arises. "Whatever" includes the chattering mind.

The word "practise" includes the recurring fact of making mistakes.

Just stick with it.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Gassho Hans! I find that my chattering mind is also a gift. It helps me think through problems and solve things.

Gassho,

Risho