I ran across a conversation about...

[Yusei]

…samsara and nirvana out here in the vast landscape of the internet and someone made the following statement:

"If I confuse a piece of rope on the ground as a snake, and I have a fear of snakes, my reaction will be very real to me in that moment...Samsara

Of course if I see the rope as a rope, there is no reaction of fear...Nirvana

The rope is still a rope, regardless of my experience in each instance.

The conversation was around the notion that the two concepts are actually one…etc. It struck a chord with me and I wanted to get thoughts from my sangha!



Sat/Lah

Yusei

[Jundo]

Hmmm. I think perhaps that is a very, overly simple way to try to define this. Not really right in most schools of Buddhism too.

For Master Dogen and many Mahayana Buddhist folks, the rope is the whole of reality, all of time and space, me and you, snakes, every thing, being and moment woven as every thread. That is so whether we fear it or not. And, while that is true, it is still also 100% just a piece of robe on the ground too. ALSO, there are no snakes nor ropes for all are Empty ... never were nor will ever be ... yet there ARE and the rope is all snakes, snakes are precisely ropes. You are the rope and the snake, the snake and rope are you ... and there are no separate you/rope/snake at all and never were.

However, when we fear it, or can only see it as "a piece of rope" we may miss the "whole of reality" nature.

When we think in limited fashion that "no reaction of fear" is Nirvana, we also miss the "whole of reality" nature, including the fact that "fear or no fear," rope and no rope are all Empty of separate self-existence. The "whole of reality" is both fear and no fear, rope and no rope, snake or no snake ... and when we truly pierce this nature of Emptiness, then there may still be "fear" and "rope" and "snakes" still are present, but somehow different from before.

Then, said Master Dogen, use the rope at the well to sincerely, with dedication, fetch water.

Something like that. Does that also strike a "cord"?

Ask the person who posted that and see their reaction, report back to us.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Yusei]

When we think in limited fashion that "no reaction of fear" is Nirvana...

I’m not sure that’s what the analogy intends to convey. My reading of it is that seeing things as the ACTUALLY are (ie: that’s a rope, not a snake…right view) allows one to then proceed to the other “right” stuff, thus leading to nirvana. The experience of making eye contact with an object that is a rope but then perceiving and responding to a snake (wrong view) is, in this analogy, the standard human experience…giving rise to dukkah, left turn, right turn, samsara…

In both instances, it was just a rope so regardless of the “experience”, the reality was just that, the reality…same “event”, different “experiences”, so to speak.

I’m not sure I’m explaining my thoughts clearly but who does at 1am?!!

Thank you for your insight, Jundo . Much respect

Sat/LAH
Yusei

[Jundo]

I’m not sure that’s what the analogy intends to convey. My reading of it is that seeing things as the ACTUALLY are (ie: that’s a rope, not a snake…right view) allows one to then proceed to the other “right” stuff, thus leading to nirvana. The experience of making eye contact with an object that is a rope but then perceiving and responding to a snake (wrong view) is, in this analogy, the standard human experience…giving rise to dukkah, left turn, right turn, samsara…

In both instances, it was just a rope so regardless of the “experience”, the reality was just that, the reality…same “event”, different “experiences”, so to speak.

I’m not sure I’m explaining my thoughts clearly but who does at 1am?!!

Thank you for your insight, Jundo . Much respect

Sat/LAH
Yusei

Ah, but in the Mahayana, in Emptiness ... it is not even a rope. It is molecules, atoms, and idea of "ropeness" ... not even that.

But it is also the whole universe, you me, every thing and moment, in each strand.

It is not the reality of "a rope." It is your idea between your ears of "rope" based on an indentity and name you assign to a certain configuration of molecules you mentally associate with a certain function (e.g., "group of carbon and nitrogen atoms in a certain configuration that I use to tie things up.") based on photons that contacted your eye, transmitted electrochemically to the brain into an image of "rope." You have never seen an actual "rope." Heck, you have never even seen your own left hand holding the rope!

As well, "rope" cannot be separate from what we hang up. Is it a belt to hold our pants, a hangman's noose, or just a useless thing lying on the ground? If I use a snake to hold up my pants, is it now a "rope?" I would fear the hangman's noose more than the snake!
.

image.png

In any case, there is no "rope" except between your ears. Don't think that, by not judging it or labeling it, we make it more real. Why is a rope that we think a "rope" more real than a rope that we think a "snake?" Is not a "rope that we think a snake" a REAL "rope that we think a snake?"

In any case ... I was just speaking yesterday to my old friend from Florida, and she is kinda famous in the snake world (really) ... Donna the Snake Rider ...
.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Yusei]

Ah, but in the Mahayana, in Emptiness ... it is not even a rope. It is molecules, atoms, and idea of "ropeness" ... not even that.

But it is also the whole universe, you me, every thing and moment, in each strand.

It is not the reality of "a rope." It is your idea between your ears of "rope" based on an indentity and name you assign to a certain configuration of molecules you mentally associate with a certain function (e.g., "group of carbon and nitrogen atoms in a certain configuration that I use to tie things up.") based on photons that contacted your eye, transmitted electrochemically to the brain into an image of "rope." You have never seen an actual "rope." Heck, you have never even seen your own left hand holding the rope!

As well, "rope" cannot be separate from what we hang up. Is it a belt to hold our pants, a hangman's noose, or just a useless thing lying on the ground? If I use a snake to hold up my pants, is it now a "rope?" I would fear the hangman's noose more than the snake!
.

image.png

In any case, there is no "rope" except between your ears. Don't think that, by not judging it or labeling it, we make it more real. Why is a rope that we think a "rope" more real than a rope that we think a "snake?" Is not a "rope that we think a snake" a REAL "rope that we think a snake?"

In any case ... I was just speaking yesterday to my old friend from Florida, and she is kinda famous in the snake world (really) ... Donna the Snake Rider ...
.

Gassho, J
stlah

I receive the teaching about emptiness. I get it brotha…I do.

But I’d submit, respectfully of course, that if I try to remain within the framework of what the person who made the comment is trying to convey, I'd accept that in the analogy they’re using to communicate an idea, the rope isn’t being fashioned by another human being to be used as a tool to murder them. In the scenario at hand, it can easily be mistaken for a snake on the ground. It’s not around someone’s waist as a belt or another abstraction that one might mention to make a point about dependent origination, labeling, or what have you.

In the analogy, there is a rope on the ground that could be mistaken for a snake. In the scenario, snakes can potentially kill you and people tend to avoid that, including Mahayana Buddhists (Trust me, I know…I’m deathly afraid of snakes and I ran across one in the yard the other day…so icky!!!!). I guess what I’m saying is, to allow the discussion to be fruitful with the person, I’m allowing our practical experience of the world to color the discussion. In that world, snakes are snakes and we treat them differently than we treat ropes. We don’t perceive ropes to be dangerous unless they’re being wielded by someone who intends us harm and they aren’t holding up pants if well… they’re not around someone’s waist. Know what I’m mean?? I know ya do, ya just gotta man…cm’oooooooon.

Somethin’ tells me that Donna gets that snakes and ropes aren’t to be handled the same way.

Peace

[Jundo]

Hi Yusei,

Ropes are not snakes. Yusei is not Jundo. Sugar is not poison. You are correct. And yet, they are.

Our practice here is Zen, Mahayana, the Huayan (Flower Garland) teachings and the like.

So, to get the point across I looked to see what other Zen and Buddhist teachers said on this. Snake and rope was a popular analogy. Red Pine explains a little in his translation of the Lankavatara Sutra ...

imagined reality = The Sanskrit is parikalpita-svabhava. This is one of the three modes of reality according to Yogacara Buddhism and represents the net of delusions cast upon dependent reality and interpreted as real. In the snakerope analogy, imagined reality is when the rope is seen as a snake.

perfected reality =The Sanskrit is parinishpanna-svabhava. One of the three modes of reality, this refers to seeing what is truly so. It also corresponds to the last two of the five dharmas, namely, the correct knowledge of suchness. In the snake-rope analogy, it is seeing both snake and rope as (mis)perceptions of one’s own mind.

dependent reality = The Sanskrit is paratantra-svabhava. Reality as a matrix of interdependence, where nothing exists by itself and where there are therefore no things in themselves. Dependent reality is also referred to as pratityasamutpada, or dependent origination. In the snake-rope analogy, dependent reality is the rope. While it forms the basis for misperception, it is also a misperception, as it is an arbitrary designation without self-existence.

Other Mahayana Yogachara (sometimes called "Consciousness Only") teachings put it this way, summarized here:

Consciousness-Only [Yogachara] teaches that essentially the world is the product of mind and is a more psychological approach to reality. It establishes that there are three levels of truth, the delusory, the provisional and the real or ultimate truth. A major illustration for this teaching describes a man walking on a road at dusk. Suddenly he spots an object in the road that looks like a snake. He grabs a stick to fend off the snake and discovers that it is only a piece of rope. The snake is the delusory level of truth. It is not there at all. The rope is the provisional level. It is there but from the ultimate standpoint it is not the highest reality. Only when we go beyond the appearances to the fundamental basis of experience do we come to know reality. Ultimate truth is beyond all relative perceptions.

http://bschawaii.org/shindharmanet/w...Iconoclast.pdf

Dogen and some other Mahayana teachers would go further, to reaffirm every thing as precisely that very thing AND everything as Empty of all thingness AND everything as everything AND everything as everything else AND everything as the whole thing. That is what I did in my first response to you above.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Yusei]

...to reaffirm every thing as precisely that very thing AND everything as Empty of all thingness AND everything as everything AND everything as everything else AND everything as the whole thing. That is what I did in my first response to you above.

Indeed.

[Hosui]

Thank you, Jundo and Yusei for this gift of the dharma.

Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah today

[Yusei]

Jundo…wait, I was thinking/not thinking about it.

So, can I over-simplify what you’re saying like this, “Ultimately, there is no snake nor a rope, there is just this.”?


Yusei
sat/lah

[Jundo]

Jundo…wait, I was thinking/not thinking about it.

So, can I over-simplify what you’re saying like this, “Ultimately, there is no snake nor a rope, there is just this.”?


Yusei
sat/lah

How's this (although, recall that it is about feeling and experiencing so, not merely saying it just as an idea) ...

... there is no snake nor a rope, there is just this ... which is the snake and rope, Yusei and me, everything and every moment, today, yesterday, tomorrow ... and everything is all things and every other things, such that the snake is the rope and you and me, and always has been ... all in a great dance that all reality is doing.

Now, that being the case, live gently in this world, as free as you can from greed, anger and ignorance.

How's that?

Gassho, J
stlah

[Yusei]

How's that?

Tis good. Thank you, sir.