Thinking about experiencing rather than just experiencing?

[nonexistent]

I hope this is the right section to ask this under. If there is already a thread about this, I apologize - if someone wouldn't mind linking to it, I would be grateful!

While practicing, when I hear something I think about hearing it rather than just hearing it. For example, I hear my dog chewing on a bone and I think "chewing" rather than just hearing it. I think this is called labeling? Or if I feel a breeze, I think "cold."

I am attempting Zazen with my focus on the present moment (rather than on the breath), but how do I focus on the present without thinking about/labeling sensory experiences in the present?

I know I should let these noticing thoughts/labeling arise and fall, and I do. I am just wondering how I focus on the present moment without thinking about the present moment? How do I just experience it? Does it depend on how deep I settle into Zazen?

I sit for 10mins at a time, sometimes 2-3x per day, so I am still a beginner. Just moved up to 11mins.

Thank you everyone.

[Junsho]

Hi Khan,

I am not a teacher, so please consider this as the best way that I can offer to help. So...

Zazen is not about reject the thinking but when it happens just view and let the thinking goes away and return to the present moment. Our mind is a filter that tend to take us to many places other than the reality.

Like any other organ, the heart function is to beat, the lungs to breath and the mind to think. What you say happens to everyone, like a river, just let your mind flows, do not link to anything that your mind present to you and most important do not create expectations. Sit with equanimity, nothing to reach and nothing to add.

Gassho!
SatLah

[Shinshi]

Hi Khan,

I am just a priest in training so take my words with a grain of salt. I have certainly been in the place you describe. At times in the past I would get really caught up in my thinking about thinking. i would wait for thoughts to come up and then try to kill them! But that turned out to be almost backwards. I'll say it this way. Thoughts are going to arise. When they do you just let it arise and then let it go. No need to label it, or identify it, or think about it. Just let it go.

Lately I have been thinking about this process as like sitting by a river. Every once in a while a bit of flotsam will drift down the river and pass in front of you. A thought will arise. Just let it drift on by and let the river flow.

And for me still, sometimes, the thing that drifts by just grabs my attention. Is that a suitcase? An upside down umbrella? I kind of attach to it and get up and try to follow it down the bank. Then I remember that it is just the same as all the other thoughts, it isn't anything special and I am able to let it go. Then go back to my spot by the river. Just let the river go on by and don't think about the thinking.

Anyway, that is how I think about it today.


Jundo has done a wonderful job of talking about this.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/teacher-talks-tips/teacher-talks-tips-aa/vital-points-of-shikantaza-zazen/11418-drivin-dogen-understanding-open-spacious-awareness#post11418

Gassho,

Shinshi

[Bion]

Gonna add my two cents here, hopefully complementing what Shinshi said. I don't think the "labeling" itself is problematic. Maybe your brain is accustomed to that and you do that off the cushion too. The mind has an interesting way of producing "reality" for us. Noise touches the ear, there's perception. The experience itself is already there as the mind grabs hold of it and creates a mental formation. So then the mind fabricates a name and identity for it "dog" ,"loud" etc.. I guess you can call that a verbal fabrication. If you pay close enough attention to every other thing you experience, you'll surely find the same process happening over and over again. Sometimes, folks say "Zazen makes me feel sad, or agitated, or angry or etc", but really it is just that in zazen we pay attention and remain aware in a way that we're not accustomed to, so the arising and ceasing of dharmas, as the Buddha called it, the fabrications of our mind, might become apparent to us in a way we haven't experienced before. I think what matters in zazen is what you do after that moment. Do you chase that thought or leave it be? If you manage to put it down, just continue sitting and don't be worried. Off the cushion, you may want to try paying attention to yourself every now and then and see if you observe that same thing. That might be a fun exercise to understand yourself a bit more. Hope this adds something useful to the discussion.

Gassho
sat lah

[Houzan]

Not sure if I’m being helpful, but I’ll try to complement what is said above with another perspective: You are writing «focus on the present moment». For me “focus” quickly becomes pushing away thoughts, and this is not really letting go. Truly letting go, or radical equanimity, is, the way I understand it, to let what comes come, what stays stay, and what goes go. Being no one, going nowhere, nothing to achieve. Dogen puts it simply this way: “Zazen is the Dharma gate of joyful ease.”

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Bion]

Not sure if I’m being helpful, but I’ll try to complement what is said above with another perspective: You are writing «focus on the present moment». For me “focus” quickly becomes pushing away thoughts, and this is not really letting go. Truly letting go, or radical equanimity, is, the way I understand it, to let what comes come, what stays stay, and what goes go. Being no one, going nowhere, nothing to achieve. Dogen puts it simply this way: “Zazen is the Dharma gate of joyful ease.”

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

Hmm, I wonder.... You make me ponder again What comes doesn't come from nowhere, you create it and what stays, stays cause you make it stay by engaging with it. You can't just let thoughts stay, for example, cause then you're thinking, not just sitting. Uchiyama Roshi says thinking is like sleepiness when we speak of Zazen and his description is that "zazen is a continuation of this kind of returning up from sleepiness and down from chasing after thoughts." He also says "Therefore, when we become sleepy (or we chase thoughts) during zazen, we have to wake up by vigorously putting our energy into our sitting with our flesh and bones and cease chasing after thoughts." . The idea here, Houzan is that our sitting is not dead sitting, kind of like " if I'm lost in thoughts I stay lost in thoughts", but rather an active process of maintaining awareness so that we recognize thinking and with no discriminatory judgments, simply let it go and return to just sitting in our posture.
Master Dogen actually used a different wording to express non-thinking, (hishiryo)in a paragraph included in the Tenpuku version of Fukanzazengi, which Jundo actually talked about a couple of weeks ago. He says "When thought arises, be aware of it. When you are aware of it, it will disappear. Put aside everything outside continuously, and make yourself into one piece. This is the essential art of zazen." Reverend Tsunoda, from Komazawa University makes the point that it is important to realize that this instruction, later replaced with the expression think non-thinking, helps us understand what master Dogen meant by hishiryo and the mental activity in zazen which is very much an active one.

Gassho
sat lah

[nonexistent]

Shinshi
Thank you. Even though you may just be in training, your thoughts are still valuable!
Using the river analogy, I will be sitting by the river and something floats by that I recognize - and my mind automatically goes "duck." I don't tend to stay focused on the 'duck,' I just notice it and then come back to my spot once it floats past. And then the next time another duck comes by, my mind labels it once more. Of course, sometimes I get attached to thinking about things, but for this labeling process it is just an automatic thought. Though it takes me a little while to get "back in the zone" I guess you could say.

Bion
Thank you as well for your addition! I think you are spot on in that during Zazen, I am noticing things that I usually do that I don't notice. I think I do the "labeling" automatically in other scenarios, but I just don't particularly notice. During Zazen, I have that automatic thought but usually don't get caught up in it, so it seems I am doing the right thing!

[Jundo]

I am with Junsho, Shinshi and Houzan on this, as I understand their words.

The brain already does not think about 99% of what it is seeing and sensing. Right now, you do not need to do anything, because the brain naturally ignores most of what is pouring into it.

As to the other bit it does notice, you will make it worse by obsessing about trying to not think about it. Best is not to stop thoughts, but just to be untangled by the thoughts which come and go, like Shinshi's items that pass on the river in equanimity. Sometimes there will be very quiet moments when we are not particularly thinking anything and the world is very still. Sometimes a thought will come, but somehow it is simple and untangled, and we just let it pass without grabbing on, stirring it up, or following its chain. At that point, a clarity and light shines through both thoughts and no thoughts, and all becomes clear.

(1) In one case, for example, there is an ugly table in the room (or some other problem in life), and we ponder it, think how to fix or replace it, wallow in its ugliness, resent its existence, make plans for where to hide it, think about where new furniture stores are located, think about what it will cost, wallow in hating the table, feel that the table is ruining the room and one's life, thought thought thought etc. etc. etc.

(2) In another case, we just are not thinking or even really seeing the table even though right before our eyes. That is fine. It is seen but not even registering really.

(3) In another case, a thought of the "ugly table" briefly comes to mind, and we just let it be, letting ugly tables just be ugly tables, letting the thought drift away, not grabbing the thought, stirring it up or following its chain. That is also fine. The table is, but one is unencumbered by the table. The table drifts from mind ...

I would say that Shikantaza is to move between (2) and (3), and a silence and stillness shine through both. We sit vibrantly, alert and awake ... letting all drift by freely. If finding ourselves (1) tangled in thoughts, we return to (2) or (3) by returning attention to Just Sitting "Open Awareness," or the breath, posture or the like.
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No need to intentionally label passing thoughts (e.g., "this is a table, let it go ...") Rather, simply be untangled and unencumbered.

Noise touches the ear, there's perception. The experience itself is already there as the mind grabs hold of it and creates a mental formation. So then the mind fabricates a name and identity for it "dog" ,"loud" etc.. I guess you can call that a verbal fabrication. If you pay close enough attention to every other thing you experience, you'll surely find the same process happening over and over again.

Bion, your description is right on, but you sound very Vipassana today for some reason. I think that Dogen moved away from the notion of "When thought arises, be aware of it." It sounds like we are to note it and do something, which I don't feel was his intention. Instead, just let it be, let it go, untangled. We do not "do." We "non-do" in our sitting. We are not "thinking," we are not "not thinking." We are "non-thinking" ... "thinking not thinking."

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

PS - Khan, please write "SatToday" and "LAH" for your posts. It encourages others in our community to Sit and do good things. Thank you.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/practices/engaged-charitable-projects-center/16154-request-sattoday-lend-a-hand-please-lah-and-sat-before-chat

[nonexistent]

Jundo
Thank you for that detailed description with the table, it is very helpful! I will keep in mind drifting between 2-3.

I will also be sure to add those to my posts from now on. I apologize for not doing so before, as I wasn't aware.

SatToday; LAH

[Bion]

I would say that Shikantaza is to move between (2) and (3), and a silence and stillness shine through both. We sit vibrantly, alert and awake ... letting all drift by freely. If finding ourselves (1) tangled in thoughts, we return to (2) or (3) by returning attention to Just Sitting "Open Awareness," or the breath, posture or the like.

This is all I was saying. One has to remain actively aware to be able to return when one drifts away.

Gassho
sat lah

[Houzan]

Hmm, I wonder.... You make me ponder again What comes doesn't come from nowhere, you create it and what stays, stays cause you make it stay by engaging with it. You can't just let thoughts stay, for example, cause then you're thinking, not just sitting. Uchiyama Roshi says thinking is like sleepiness when we speak of Zazen and his description is that "zazen is a continuation of this kind of returning up from sleepiness and down from chasing after thoughts." He also says "Therefore, when we become sleepy (or we chase thoughts) during zazen, we have to wake up by vigorously putting our energy into our sitting with our flesh and bones and cease chasing after thoughts." . The idea here, Houzan is that our sitting is not dead sitting, kind of like " if I'm lost in thoughts I stay lost in thoughts", but rather an active process of maintaining awareness so that we recognize thinking and with no discriminatory judgments, simply let it go and return to just sitting in our posture.
Master Dogen actually used a different wording to express non-thinking, (hishiryo)in a paragraph included in the Tenpuku version of Fukanzazengi, which Jundo actually talked about a couple of weeks ago. He says "When thought arises, be aware of it. When you are aware of it, it will disappear. Put aside everything outside continuously, and make yourself into one piece. This is the essential art of zazen." Reverend Tsunoda, from Komazawa University makes the point that it is important to realize that this instruction, later replaced with the expression think non-thinking, helps us understand what master Dogen meant by hishiryo and the mental activity in zazen which is very much an active one.

Gassho
sat lah

Thank you, Bion

No, sitting in radical equanimity is certainly not «dead sitting» or thinking. But in my experience thoughts come without me intentionally creating them, and sometimes stay without me engaging with them.

When the words “maintain awareness or focus” is used it quickly becomes, for me, a goal. I try hard to be aware, to be focused. For me the words “sit in radical equanimity with nowhere to go and nothing to achieve” already encompasses it all and is much more to the point, as I understand it. If thoughts stay, let them stay, but simultaneously don’t grasp at them. Making them go away is grasping. Engaging with them (chasing after them) is grasping. Letting go is to let them do whatever they please - come, stay or go. To me, this is a world apart from thinking or sleeping.

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah