Practice vs enlightenment-practice

[Jundo]

Hi Hozan,

I don't see anything wrong in what you write at all. I guess I just don't see the difference in what you describe between "practice-enlightenment" and "practice." It is just words, so not so important. But I think Dogen might say "the whole world lighting the incense" and "my lighting the incense with care" are one thing. Actually, he might say that that "whole world lighting the incense" is "enlightenment" and our "lighting the incense with care" is "practice-enlightenment" (which brings the enlightenment to life in the world.) So, I think we are talking about the same thing, but just using the words differently perhaps? Insights are the same, names different.

I would also say (and maybe Dogen would disagree, I am not sure) that we do not need to ALWAYS light the incense mindfully, with elegance and grace. That is a nice ideal. However, sometimes (maybe much of the time), just light the darn incense! Maybe sometimes forget to light the incense (I've done that) or even screw it up and set your robe sleeve on fire (I've done that too!) Sometimes, don't light incense, light the mosquito coil or the stove for lunch. The point is not that we want to screw it up or be negligent, but that we are human, not Dharma robots!

In fact, even failing sometimes and not being so serious all the time is part of the universe's "Practice-Enlightenment," I feel.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Houzan]

Actually, he might say that that "whole world lighting the incense" is "enlightenment" and our "lighting the incense with care" is "practice-enlightenment" (which brings the enlightenment to life in the world.)

This is exactly it! Thank you. And here I believe I could add that "lighting the incense without care" (without zazen mind) could be "mere" practice. Just executing forms (still beautiful though, and still useful!).

I would also say (and maybe Dogen would disagree, I am not sure) that we do not need to ALWAYS light the incense mindfully, with elegance and grace. That is a nice ideal. However, sometimes (maybe much of the time), just light the darn incense! Maybe sometimes forget to light the incense (I've done that) or even screw it up and set your robe sleeve on fire (I've done that too!) Sometimes, don't light incense, light the mosquito coil or the stove for lunch. The point is not that we want to screw it up or be negligent, but that we are human, not Dharma robots!

In fact, even failing sometimes and not being so serious all the time is part of the universe's "Practice-Enlightenment," I feel.

This for me, is how I understand the "radical" in radical equanimity.

Thank you, Jundo

Gassho, Houzan
Satlah

[Bion]

This is exactly it! Thank you. And here I believe I could add that "lighting the incense without care" (without zazen mind) could be "mere" practice. Just executing forms (still beautiful though, and still useful!).

It's still practice-realization, but you are expressing your own practice, realization and awakening as careless action. That's just how you choose to show up for that moment.

Gassho
sat lah

[Jundo]

It's still practice-realization, but you are expressing your own practice, realization and awakening as careless action. That's just how you choose to show up for that moment.

Gassho
sat lah

Yes, that is right. It is still "practice-enlightenment," but now done poorly. It is the whole universe acting poorly because the person is acting poorly. Thus, Master Dogen reminds us, we should do our best not to act poorly, but rather, with care, poise and sincerity embodying the ways of a Buddha.

This is all "semantics" really, just splittlng hairs abut words, and we should not get lost in words. I am not sure that I would use "just practice" as you do, Hozan, but I get the point you are trying to make too.

Bottom line is that, when we act with grace and poise, or act poorly, it is the whole world doing so. However, we should realize (know profoundly) that fact and realize (make real in life through our actions) that fact, acting with grace and poise. It is still true when we act poorly, but we hide and miss the fact.

Gassho, J
stlah