Where do we turn?

[Ed]

Simply, Emptiness is what we perceive, not the Reality of Life.
Thank you Jundo for opening Zen Buddhism to us here, now, again. No time for learning like a moment of pain.
Gassho to all.

[George]

IMHO when we talk about words like "evil" or "good" we should distinguish between the deed and the doer.
Everyone of us is capable of good deeds and evil deeds. That does not mean that we are good or evil. We just are as we are and should try to refrain from "evil deeds" and try to do "good deeds" instead.

I like the sentiment but disagree slightly with some of it.

When looking at the deed surely no action is 'evil' without the intent of the doer being taken into account. This is why the term 'harmful' makes more sense to me, an action can be harmful even when done with the best intentions, and indeed harmful actions are even justified when all other courses of action (or inaction) are justified. Likewise an action that does good can be performed with incorrect intentions. Also the term 'evil' implies an active intent to do harm but we should also be aware of harm caused by inaction or by a more passive lack of thought in the situation.

"All harmful actions, words, and thoughts ever committed by me..." really makes sense to me as it includes:
- any intentional harm with malicious intent
- any unintentional harm caused by lack of thought
- any unintentional harm caused during active intent to do good
- any intentional harm when other courses of action or inaction would have been worse

My personal feeling is that we are reborn at every moment and inherit certain baggage both good and bad (aka karma) from the infinite instances of the self that came before so 'we' cannot be good or evil due to the lack of permament 'self', all we can do is choose the 'right' action from moment to moment, and as we cannot always be sure of what the 'right' action is we must ensure we choose our actions with the right intentions.

i.e.

We just are as we are and should try to refrain from "evil deeds" and try to do "good deeds" instead.

(If any of you believe that you have a 'self' that is somehow permanent I would recommend reading some of David Hume's and Derek Parfit's writings)

[Jinyo]

ah ok.. I'm not talking about evil synonymous with the devil. I'm talking about negative, bad things. lol

Edit: but maybe I am. You are right evil is a loaded term. I have to consider this as well. I was so certain when I responded to Willow, but now that I think about evil it gets tricky very quickly. I started to think about an absolute good as well.. and good varies by circumstance. For instance even love is not necessarily good if that type of action is not appropriate... this is a tricky one

I feel in our everyday use of words semantics is important. I don't feel comfortable with the word 'evil' at all, agree with Dosho as to the connatations. 'Harmful' feels ok - and 'negative' works for me because I believe negative energy in it's many manifestations (grasping, greed, anger, etc) causes many problems.

But the 'root' cause(s) much harder to work out. At the end of the day all behaviour (skillful/unskilful - positive/negative) comes from mind. What is happening in a person's mind? I don't believe in evil because I'm certain all human beings are born innocent. But the central point of buddhism seems to be that mind is naturally ruled by instincts/desires/passions/perceptions.

Perhaps 'evil' needs to be defined as the mind out of control, skewed, distorted and the reasons for this many - and often beyond our comprehension.

Gassho

Willow

[Daijo]

Perhaps someday a teaching will come along that is "beyond words..."

[Daitetsu]

Hi George,

I like the sentiment but disagree slightly with some of it.

When looking at the deed surely no action is 'evil' without the intent of the doer being taken into account. This is why the term 'harmful' makes more sense to me, an action can be harmful even when done with the best intentions, and indeed harmful actions are even justified when all other courses of action (or inaction) are justified. [ ... ]

I agree with you. The way you put it makes more sense and takes more factors into account (that I overlooked with my statement).

My personal feeling is that we are reborn at every moment and inherit certain baggage both good and bad (aka karma) from the infinite instances of the self that came before so 'we' cannot be good or evil due to the lack of permament 'self', all we can do is choose the 'right' action from moment to moment, and as we cannot always be sure of what the 'right' action is we must ensure we choose our actions with the right intentions.

Once again I fully agree.
When I talked about that we should avoid doing evil (although harmful is more fitting, you are right) deeds, I thought of the (small) self at the current situation - a kind of snapshot that one is at this very moment.
Our decisions have an effect that will affect "us" and "others" in the future (karma, cause and effect).

(If any of you believe that you have a 'self' that is somehow permanent I would recommend reading some of David Hume's and Derek Parfit's writings)

The illusion of self is a core teaching of Buddhism, but still the model of the 'self' can sometimes be helpful in order to describe certain things.

Thanks a lot for your clarifying comments!

Gassho,

Timo

[Jundo]

Perhaps someday a teaching will come along that is "beyond words..."

I agree. Call it strawberries or glass or turds ... call it nothing at all ... a rose smells as sweet, and little children die at the hands of a mentally ill man.

Words are not important here.

And there is That which Silently holds strawberries and glass, turds and roses, little children and ill men ... silently. **

Gassho, J

** This is usually the point where someone shows up to accuse Jundo of shutting down good, stimulating philosophical discussion and debate just when it was getting going. Sorry, it is in Taigu and my "beyond words and letters" job description for questions like this. If you want good debate, maybe go find a Tibetan.

[Dosho]

I just wanted to say that, for me, the more important question than "What is evil?" was Jundo asking me, "Why does the word bother you so much?". That's the thing to consider silently.

And, so you know, I looked up the meaning of the word evil and for many centuries it just referred to "negative". Only the Europeans by around the 18th century started adding "other worldly" meaning to it. Which is basically is what we were debating.

'nuff said.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Kyotai]

Good point Dosho.

Gassho

Shawn

[George]

...
The illusion of self is a core teaching of Buddhism, but still the model of the 'self' can sometimes be helpful in order to describe certain things.

Hi Timo,

Yes, sorry to be preaching to converted as it were. I am fairly new to Treeleaf so I am still getting used to the fact that I seem to agree with so much of what is said here.

Thankfully the nature of the illusion of self seems to be well accepted on Treeleaf, I have not always found it so in other places though. Some groups that focus more on the rebirth and karma side of things seem to forget the illusion of self and my understanding has been that they almost see the continuing self as something to gain freedom from. One monk whom I had studied translations of the dhammapada with for almost a year put forward his view that disabled people must have done something evil in their past life otherwise why would 'karma' punish them so much? I felt his justification for this relied on a continuance of self and further discussions with another group on rebirth (i.e. after bodily death) raised the question of what part of our selves continue into the next life, without any thought as to what part of our self really passes from this moment to the next.

'I' use the language of continuous self almost all the time so 'I' am as guilty as others of using that model.

Gassho,

George

[RichardH]

Hi Timo,

Yes, sorry to be preaching to converted as it were. I am fairly new to Treeleaf so I am still getting used to the fact that I seem to agree with so much of what is said here.

Thankfully the nature of the illusion of self seems to be well accepted on Treeleaf, I have not always found it so in other places though. Some groups that focus more on the rebirth and karma side of things seem to forget the illusion of self and my understanding has been that they almost see the continuing self as something to gain freedom from. One monk whom I had studied translations of the dhammapada with for almost a year put forward his view that disabled people must have done something evil in their past life otherwise why would 'karma' punish them so much? I felt his justification for this relied on a continuance of self and further discussions with another group on rebirth (i.e. after bodily death) raised the question of what part of our selves continue into the next life, without any thought as to what part of our self really passes from this moment to the next.

'I' use the language of continuous self almost all the time so 'I' am as guilty as others of using that model.

Gassho,

George

Without getting into a debate about it.. "No-self" is skillful means (upaya) , an antidote to being stuck in self-view. Hanging onto no-self isn't any better than hanging onto self. When just sitting, where is self and no-self? No-self view falls away in practice along with self view.
Gassho, kojip

[AlanLa]

Yes, 28 dead. I am bad at the math when there are so many to add.

Thank you for this rafael:

"Gone and not gone:
Like a wave that's reached the shore.

Where did the wave go?
Did it go anywhere at all?

The ocean moves and waves are born
Life dances and we are danced into being.

You are dancing still."

Where do we turn? I asked. We turn to each other. Great and tragic events seem to have a way of dissolving the separation between us, at least for a while. It's a horrible and much too costly method for that glimpse of enlightenment, however. But still, for a moment, we really can feel each others' pain. For a moment, we really do become safe and still in each others' arms. Horrors like this tend to bring out the best in us, generally speaking. Yes, there are exceptions, such as 9/11's associated prejudice and acts of violence against Muslims, but I am choosing optimism here. I think we have to, at least if we want to move forward on the Path.

Thank you, everyone.
Gasho

[Myoku]

Thank you Al for bringing this up,

Our children have returned to that Peace and Wholeness which was never left, beyond and holding birth and death. Though lives appear to our eyes to be lost too early, please find that which is Timeless and never bound by "long or short". Though our hearts are broken, there is a Heart which can never be broken in its Wholeness. And though this life is like a dream, sometimes beautiful and somtimes ugly, it is our dream. May we go forth and make a world free of violence.

I wish they can hear it, feel it, be it. Thank you
Gassho
Myoku

[Kyonin]

The news not only shocked the US. It shook us all here in Mexico. So very sad and sorry event.

Thank you for the words, Jundo.

We still have lots to learn.

Gassho,

Kyonin