Where do we turn?

[Risho]

negative or evil... now we're just getting into semantics. There is good and there is evil. If you say otherwise, you're just clinging to an absolute point of view, but we don't live and breathe in the absolute. We live and breathe now.

Gassho,

Risho

[Dosho]

All "evil" karma ever committed by me since of old ... ?

Actually, Jundo changed it within the last year or so from something like "All harmful actions, words, and thoughts ever committed by me...". When I asked him why he changed it, I mentioned that I didn't like the word "evil" and he asked me to explore that. So, I have...still working on it.

I would still like to know why the change was made, but while it did make me uncomfortable to say it at first, I don't find it as such anymore. Maybe that means I can ask again.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Dosho]

negative or evil... now we're just getting into semantics. There is good and there is evil. If you say otherwise, you're just clinging to an absolute point of view, but we don't live and breathe in the absolute. We live and breathe now.

For me, the difference is not semantics. Evil is a very loaded word that many in the West see as synonymous with the devil, often times implying that an evil doer was possessed or influenced by a diety that is pure evil.

Negative is a mathemtical term.

I still do not believe in evil and in my daily life do not use it except as Jundo has requested I use it. I also don't believe in an absolute good either...two sides of a no sided coin with many a shade of grey inbetween.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Risho]

ah ok.. I'm not talking about evil synonymous with the devil. I'm talking about negative, bad things. lol

Edit: but maybe I am. You are right evil is a loaded term. I have to consider this as well. I was so certain when I responded to Willow, but now that I think about evil it gets tricky very quickly. I started to think about an absolute good as well.. and good varies by circumstance. For instance even love is not necessarily good if that type of action is not appropriate... this is a tricky one

[RichardH]

The word Evil brings some interesting reactions. I see it as descriptive of extreme willful cruelty. Just as saying something is beautiful doesn't mean a entity called "Beauty" exists ( it did for some ancients), neither does "evil" require an evil entity. I once knew a Buddhist who insisted on saying Pol Pot's killing fields were "unskillful", because there is no such entity as evil. It can slide into a Buddhist political correctness. IMO

Gassho, kojip

[AlanLa]

Our children have returned to that Peace and Wholeness which was never left, beyond and holding birth and death. Though lives appear to our eyes to be lost too early, please find that which is Timeless and never bound by "long or short". Though our hearts are broken, there is a Heart which can never be broken in its Wholeness. And though this life is like a dream, sometimes beautiful and somtimes ugly, it is our dream. May we go forth and make a world free of violence.

This would've been a very nice addition to that service, Jundo.

I completely and totally see its place there. My point is that it wasn't. And it is a very small point in this very large event.

I know you and Taigu do this very hard work, the comforting of survivors in so many situations beyond this tragedy, the every day of it all, and I commend you for it.

Honestly, such embracing of pain for this is beyond me. I am just not there yet in my Path. I am lost somewhere in between wanting to save those survivors, knowing that I cant't, and numbing the pain however I can. I haven't been this hurt since 9/11, but this is different because it's kids and it's local: 20 little beautiful children! Strangely, this was at a scale that I can at least try to understand.

This is my lightly edited entry in my journal last night when I started this thread:

Saw the Newtown memorial and can't stop thinking about it
27 dead. What's the answer to such horror?
I don't know
And I am ok with that
It still hurts horribly
And that's ok, too
It's not about feeling better. If anything, it's about feeling horrible as ok, as needed.
And then, when ready, to move on with life
But this only comforts me
How am I to save?

Oh yeah, and where do I turn?
Here

[Jundo]

Actually, Jundo changed it within the last year or so from something like "All harmful actions, words, and thoughts ever committed by me...". When I asked him why he changed it, I mentioned that I didn't like the word "evil" and he asked me to explore that. So, I have...still working on it.

I would still like to know why the change was made, but while it did make me uncomfortable to say it at first, I don't find it as such anymore. Maybe that means I can ask again.

Gassho,
Dosho

A word is just a word, but I do believe there is "evil" in the world ... actions and movements and events so heinous in the degree of hate and destruction that they can truly be described as "evil". Yes, in Buddhism we try to avoid speaking of "bad people" or "evil people" because the true source is greed, anger and ignorance. However, I believe that there are truly "evil" actions. The events in Newtown, the Swedish youth camp, Nazi Germany, Cambodia ... I can think of no more appropriate word than "evil" for the heinous nature of what was done.

I did try (I often forget) to change the wording of our Verse of Atonement during Zazenkai to "harmful" instead of "evil" because, frankly, most of the little daily harms we cause to self and others (not two, by the way) just don't measure up. Even Karma has a sliding scale. Greed, anger and ignorance comes in many degrees and forms. (There are many ways to translate the original chant from Sino-Japanese 諸悪業, so either word would do).

By the way, I do believe in Buddhist hells in a very real sense. Many Buddhists traditionally did (still do!) believe in rebirth in heavens or hells based on volitional actions (Karma) in this and past lives. Some of the descriptions of "Buddhist Hells" are as hellacious as anything in Western imagination (although the images seem to have developed independently) ... complete with pitchforks and brimstone ... look here. Not for the squeemish. I have seen similar images here and there at temples in China, Japan, Thailand and Korea ... images that would make any Fire & Brimstone preacher in the Bible Belt faint. Just like in the West, images of "hell" were often used by Buddhist preachers to get people to "be good". WARNING: 18 and OVER

https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1745&bih=868&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=buddhist+hell+temple&oq=buddhist+hell+temple&gs_l=img.3...15916.17342.0.17922.7.7.0.0.0.0.107.490.6j1.7.0...0.0...1c.1.6kyHCwPWJ54

I personally am a skeptical, but open minded, agnostic on literal, mechanical models of rebirth. It is not vital to my practice. But I do believe ... and see all the time ... people who make very terrible "hells" for themself and others in this life through their actions in this world. As I often say ...

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Buddhism also has an image of "the Devil" ... the tempter "Mara" who, in the old Suttas, is often seen trying to lead Buddha off a good course. Does Mara exist literally? Well, like Kannon as a symbol of Compassion who exists through us and is "made real" when we choose our actions and whenever we do something caring and beneficial to others, Mara likewise exists through us when we do something harmful through the temptations of greed, anger and ignorance. In the sense, yes, they are real because compassion and generosity and selfishness and hate all exist as "real forces" in this universe as humans make them real through our words, thoughts and acts. The great Buddhist skeptic Stephen Batchelor also believes in "the devil" in this way (and that, in a sense Buddha needs evil to wrestle with, thus to be Buddha), and one of his finest books is ...

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Devil-Stephen-Batchelor/dp/1594480877/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355792679&sr=8-1&keywords=Living+With+The+Devil

Yes, "evil" exists in this world. So does "goodness" fortunately. And also That certain Peace and Goodness beyond small human appraisals of "good and evil".

Gassho, J

[Taigu]

As Jundo says Hell is, in my modest opinion, nothing but something that comes from the three poisons and is self- made, home made and is no punishment.

As to rebirth, I don t know and I don t care.

Life as ii is here and now should be our sole concern and require our full attention.

Gassho

Taigu

[Mp]

The present moment is the most sacred gift of all, for this moment will never come again.

Gassho
Michael

[pinoybuddhist]

If one had the chance, what would a Buddhist (priest) say to comfort those at Newtown?
What can one of us say to comfort without calling on the Other?

I am no priest, so more likely I'll stay silent and let my arms do the talking. An embrace can speak volumes without mentioning god or buddha. That being said, sometimes you have to say something.

I wrote this in remembrance of my dead parents (that's my dad and his wife, btw - my biological mother is still alive). In a way, I wrote it to comfort me. At the same time, I offered it as my own way of comforting those who remembered them without mentioning heaven or god's divine plan.

"Gone and not gone:
Like a wave that's reached the shore.

Where did the wave go?
Did it go anywhere at all?

The ocean moves and waves are born
Life dances and we are danced into being.

You are dancing still."

Of course they died of sickness and were both old already. How to offer comfort to someone who lost a child in such a violent way.... I don't know. Christians sometimes say it's part of god's plan, but that's hardly comforting when your kid has been murdered. Me, I think I'll stick to hugging.


Gassho,

Rafael

[Taigu]

Wonderful words indeed.
You might sit with the final verse. And somehow you ll find out.

Gassho

Taigu

[Myozan Kodo]

Thanks for this poem. A gift to the world.

And thanks for these thoughts on hell and evil.

Forces are always manifest. Words point to a part of reality we single out for attention. As our hand can be the hand of Kannon, so can it be the hand of Mara. But it is our hand ... Which is also the hand of the universe.

Just my take, here and now.

Gassho
Myozan

[Daitetsu]

-------------
A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"
"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.
"I am a samurai", the warrior replied.
"You, a soldier!" sneered Hakuin, "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? You look like a beggar".
Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword.
Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably too dull to cut off my head."
Nobushige drew his sword.
Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"
At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, put away his sword and bowed.
"Here open the gates of paradise", said Hakuin.
-------------

IMHO when we talk about words like "evil" or "good" we should distinguish between the deed and the doer.
Everyone of us is capable of good deeds and evil deeds. That does not mean that we are good or evil. We just are as we are and should try to refrain from "evil deeds" and try to do "good deeds" instead.

Gassho,

Timo

[Shokai]

In reading this thread I hear of 20 beautiful children, six courageous and heroic adults and later 27 victims but, let us not forget that Adam was the 28th. He is no less a victim than the others. Whether it be the cause of some mental lesion or the violent culture we are all subjected to; the daily reinforcement of social media and gruesome computer games. And yes, I cry as much as any when CNN runs the roll call with the pictures of those precious six year olds or we see the tiny caskets. Perhaps the wording should be changed to " all the evil or harmful acts committed by me" to remind us that samsara does have a sliding scale. That it includes the seeming harmless acts, not just the blatant mistakes.
May all be free from suffering (pain, grief, loss, enmity) and be peaceful (loving, grateful, kind, compassionate); embracing all conditions of this existence

[RichardH]

I am moved by pictures of children who died (especially being a parent), yet strong emotion is being milked by the media coverage. There is something we get from collective grief, from strong emotion. Because this shooting really was a horror, it is almost sacrilegious to say this, but it is true. I remember after 9/11.. which horrified me, latching onto that feeling, and keeping it going, and resenting those who pointed to the insularity of North Americans who thought it was the apocalypse. I remember sitting zazen at that time, and having moments free of melodrama, and not liking that, preferring to experience the strong emotions of day. I am not talking about real grief .. which comes uninvited. I'm talking about something else at play, that is at play on a low grade level every day, and that is seen in practice.

Gassho, kojip