Formalities of practice

[Jakudo]

I enjoy learning the forms (as long as they are simple like myself ). To prepare for the precepts in another Zen tradition we did 3000 prostrations beforehand while reciting to ourselves the three refuges, it took me 8 months. I remember when I was told about the prostrations....3000 is such a BIG number....why would we need to do that I thought. I think it was to teach us humility, I certainly felt humble, and grateful.

[Jundo]

I enjoy learning the forms (as long as they are simple like myself ). To prepare for the precepts in another Zen tradition we did 3000 prostrations beforehand while reciting to ourselves the three refuges, it took me 8 months. I remember when I was told about the prostrations....3000 is such a BIG number....why would we need to do that I thought. I think it was to teach us humility, I certainly felt humble, and grateful.

Was that in a Korean line? They are very big with the Prostrations, often recommending 108 each day.

http://london-zen-centre.weebly.com/bowing-prostrations.html

It is a powerful physical Practice.

Gassho, Jundo

[RichardH]

When taking the precepts with Samu Sunim we did 500 prostration at the ceremony. It was in a hall with big window that were open . and the wind was blowing the white curtains around. It felt like the energy of the proceedings, very magical. He described a prostration as being like water flowing down to the lowest point. You get a second and third wind. .. that was Chicago in 97.


Gassho, kojip.

[Ed]

Those curtains! Got the feel of that ceremony, Richard.
Thanks.

To me the rituals are serious part of the practice. Think of it this way: we, strangers to each other, come together at the zendo to sit. We bring the world and its energies with us. If we dress alike in black and say the Heart Sutra together, or the Sandokai, or just bow three times with the officiant, answering to chimes and gongs, this ancient scheme anchors us to that practice and, msot importantly, to that moment.

It's the "other language" that has bothered me and for that reason, as Jundo says above, I throw my heart and mind on the strange syllables.

Other than that, sit!

[YuimaSLC]

The Order of Buddhist Contemplatives in Mt. Shasta CA (Soto Zen) not only translated most of the liturgy into English but then set about creating a "western" Gregorian chant style w/music.
And later used a very small church organ to accompany the "singing". It's founder, Peggy Jiyu Kennett received her university education in music and thus I suppose this helped the OBC with this adaptation. This liturgy is a little more poetic in style than the Soto Zen Association text, and certainly more "understandable"during recitation than the current use of turning English into syllabic Japanese-style chanting. Has the OBC become westernized to the point that they appear/sound like Anglican Church of England ? And is that necessarily the appropriate adaptation of Buddhism in the West? Jodo Shin Shu has a hymnal that sounds alot like those used in many Christian churches.

Japanese language is, due to it's simpler syllables, more conducive to chant.

I've had a few people compare the matter to the argument of whether the Catholic mass is better left in Latin for it's musical beauty, at the expense of not understanding the meaning by most people.

Chanting sutra in Japanese, with use of more nasal intonation, does create a very subtle vibration in the facial/crania area which in a way has a soothing effect.

[Jundo]

The Order of Buddhist Contemplatives in Mt. Shasta CA (Soto Zen) not only translated most of the liturgy into English but then set about creating a "western" Gregorian chant style w/music.
And later used a very small church organ to accompany the "singing". It's founder, Peggy Jiyu Kennett received her university education in music and thus I suppose this helped the OBC with this adaptation. This liturgy is a little more poetic in style than the Soto Zen Association text, and certainly more "understandable"during recitation than the current use of turning English into syllabic Japanese-style chanting. Has the OBC become westernized to the point that they appear/sound like Anglican Church of England ? And is that necessarily the appropriate adaptation of Buddhism in the West? Jodo Shin Shu has a hymnal that sounds alot like those used in many Christian churches.

Yes. Jiyu Kennett Roshi and her Lineage, the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives (Throssel Hole Buddhist Abbey in the U.K. and Shasta Abbey in the U.S) might be said to present a rather "Theistic" feel to the nature of "Buddha Nature", "Buddha" and the like.　 In many ways, she created rituals and customs that very much seem to incorporate the feeling of the Anglican Church. The style of their liturgy at OBC does resemble the "Book of Common Prayer" or "King James" Bible in its "Thee and Thou" style and feel　 ... and you can hear and see a little here if your speakers are on, a lovely Mass with "Gregorian 'Plain' Chants":

http://www.throssel.org.uk/downloads/preceptschant

Gassho, J

[empty_fullness]

While still experimenting with other practices, especially in Tibetan Buddhism, I would always get hung up and worried about pronunciations, proper this, appropriate that, ceremonies, mala counting...

When I came upon the various Zen schools and what they do it was like jumping into a cold pool.

A refreshing shock. Although at first it was a bit like having that nervous feeling before jumping on that ledge of the pool. Where's my offering prayer? Mandala mantra? Dharma protector implements?

Now it's liberating feeling that those things aren't must have tools for me anymore.

By no means knocking any other tradition, Tibet has a rich history, vibrant culture, and their way on the path taught me immense lessons.

But just like in sitting, first the mind is scattered, grasping, confused, panicked, worried about being a certain way to placate a deity.

Then we just are.

I have a strong affinity with being a practicing Buddhist and I consider Zen to be the essence of the Dharma. Therefore I still take refuge before sitting and dedicate my merit after. I do this as a firm belief that the 3 jewels are my boat to transverse the sea of suffering and I return my merits from whence they came in order to honor and recognize the sitting I just did, with of course a firm resolve to extend my zazen to the rest of existence.

This is just what I do.

TL;DR

I identify with your sentiments and I feel like many westerners go through similar feelings because just sitting is an alien idea to our collective mindset.

But even though I worried, I still sat. That worked for me. Now I just sit.

[Jundo]

[COLOR=#111111][FONT=Times]While still experimenting with other practices, especially in Tibetan Buddhism, I would always get hung up and worried about pronunciations, proper this, appropriate that, ceremonies, mala counting...

When I came upon the various Zen schools and what they do it was like jumping into a cold pool.

A refreshing shock. Although at first it was a bit like having that nervous feeling before jumping on that ledge of the pool. Where's my offering prayer? Mandala mantra? Dharma protector implements?

Now it's liberating feeling that those things aren't must have tools for me anymore.

Hi,

We also make an effort in the Japanese Zen Traditions to be very sincere, precise and "perfect" in undertaking each ceremony. At the same time (this is the Shikantaza heart), we know that it will never be "perfect", something will always go "wrong", and yet even the worst screw up of some ritual (Oryoki eating is a prime example) is always "perfectly imperfect" and "perfectly just what it is" (which is not to be confused with "perfect just as it is"). We live through all such perspectives at once ... not neglecting the goal of doing something well, yet simultaneously dropping all goal and need to attain (a kind of healthy schizophrenia! ) We can always get better AND there is no place to "get" but ever right here. We should for "perfection" and "good", all while simultaneously dropping all dichotomies of "perfect vs. imperfect" "good and bad" (we are not nihilists).

Such is our Practice, and a "Zen Klutz" like me who always drops the incense or drops his chopsticks is very much at home!

Oh, and speaking of "proper", we do ask folks to use a human first name (or Dharma Name if they received one and wish) and a picture of a photographable face. Would you have a look down at #4 here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8531-CONFIDENTIALITY-TIPS-for-Sangha-Members

Thank you, and Welcome Again!

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

In connection with the above, I just posted this on our Rohatsu Retreat thread.

By the way, if anyone would like to see what Oryoki is "supposed" to look like, please watch this beautiful video of a Retreat at Zen Mountain monastery. They are very ritual conscious there, and pay special attention to form. Very much more a ballet than my "two left feet" version during our Retreat. Of course, all is beautiful in its way. ...

Perhaps if folks are interested, we could have an "online class" here to make a more serious training in Oryoki. It is an old and traditional, but powerful Practice.

[Nindo]

Was that in a Korean line? They are very big with the Prostrations, often recommending 108 each day.

http://london-zen-centre.weebly.com/bowing-prostrations.html

It is a powerful physical Practice.

Gassho, Jundo

I've always wondered whether I could do this ... I should try! But seriously, how do you keep count?

[Seiryu]

I've always wondered whether I could do this ... I should try! But seriously, how do you keep count?

Using a mala to keep count.
I have seen Korean mala beads with a thousands beads just for bows....

[pinoybuddhist]

I've always wondered whether I could do this ... I should try! But seriously, how do you keep count?

Who counts? Just do it until somebody passes out.
Just kidding, I've never even been to a korean sangha.