The Five Skandhas

[Byokan]

Hi Allan, hey, wow! That was really an awesome explanation! I think I just learned something that will be useful all life long. Thank you. (I love Godzilla too, way too much.)

Jundo, as always you find me staring at a tree and show me the whole forest. Tree, forest, Godzilla, me, potato, potahto. Deep bows.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

[Meitou]

Hi Allan, hey, wow! That was really an awesome explanation! I think I just learned something that will be useful all life long. Thank you. (I love Godzilla too, way too much.)

Jundo, as always you find me staring at a tree and show me the whole forest. Tree, forest, Godzilla, me, potato, potahto. Deep bows.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

What a great thread, I'm so glad it got revived, and what a great appreciation from Byokan. 'You find me staring at a tree and show me the whole forest' - that is such an amazing summing up of Jundo's gift as a teacher, exactly how I feel but could never have articulated.
Deep bows to all
Frankie
satwithyoualltoday/lah

[Shinshi]

Hi Allan, hey, wow! That was really an awesome explanation! I think I just learned something that will be useful all life long. Thank you. (I love Godzilla too, way too much.)

Jundo, as always you find me staring at a tree and show me the whole forest. Tree, forest, Godzilla, me, potato, potahto. Deep bows.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

Thank you very much Byōkan. I am so glad you liked it. I became known for that lecture, students would bring me Godzillas at the end of year.

Here is my original co-instructor.

2tGfERA.jpg

Gassho, Allan

SaT-LaH

[Shinshou]

Many years ago when I was a Hindu, I read this from Eknath Easwaran in the introduction of his translation of the Bhagavad Gita:

"...we never really encounter the world; all we experience is our own nervous system."

He explains with a great example about his dog and a mango, but this one simple phrase has stuck with me for decades.

The really interesting thing to me about this model is that matter - the seemingly non-conscious (depending on whom you ask, I suppose) "stuff" - is precisely the stuff that's doing the sensing, perceiving, forming, and being conscious! We are all made of stuff, after all. It's a very strange matter (see what I did there?).

Dan
Sat today

[Kokuu]

I used to be a professor and I taught Research Methods to undergrads. And one topic was creating models. Since undergrads don't really like to focus on math that much I would use Godzilla.

I would say we are tasked with creating a model of Godzilla, to understand him better - and save the world. So we had to evaluate our models as we tried to create a representation of Godzilla. I would first present a little lizard and ask if this was a good model of Godzilla.

Oh, that is so awesome, Allan. Treeleaf people have hidden talents. I reckon that brother Brad would like your Godzilla lecture too!

In a previous life I modelled biological systems, specifically grassland ecosystems, and taught statistics but was never so creative. Your teaching assistant is certainly cute!

In studying Tibetan Buddhism we learned that all of the Buddhist schools and philosophies were attempts to model the mind and experience with varying degrees of sophistication. The skandhas is certainly part of that and a part I actually find very helpful in terms of watching my reactions to various stimuli. There is a sensation in the body (rupa) that is felt as good, bad or indifferent (vedana or feeling tone), given a name and identity through our perception (samjna) leading to volition (samskara) and reaction of one of the six consciousnesses (vijnana) related to the six senses (the usual five + mental consciousness). We can watch all of this unfold just as the Buddha describes and, to me, that is an amazing theory of human pyschology to have produced 2 500 years ago!

However, as Jundo rightly says, in Zen we never lose sight of the fact that all of these things are part of a flowing whole, even when we are looking at particulars. I agree with Allan too:

to me the Skandhas are a model with great utility. They are amazing really given when they were developed. They don't correspond perfectly to our current understanding of physics, biology and psychology - to the physical world as we know it. And some might dismiss them because of that. But, for me, they still have great utility in understanding the world and how we perceive it. It is important not to get caught up in the particulars, but to focus on the bigger picture of how they can contribute to our practice.

I am, however, a newly ordained unsui and my understanding should be taken with a rather large pinch of salt.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Shinshi]

Oh, that is so awesome, Allan. Treeleaf people have hidden talents. I reckon that brother Brad would like your Godzilla lecture too!

In a previous life I modelled biological systems, specifically grassland ecosystems, and taught statistics but was never so creative. Your teaching assistant is certainly cute!

In studying Tibetan Buddhism we learned that all of the Buddhist schools and philosophies were attempts to model the mind and experience with varying degrees of sophistication. The skandhas is certainly part of that and a part I actually find very helpful in terms of watching my reactions to various stimuli. There is a sensation in the body (rupa) that is felt as good, bad or indifferent (vedana or feeling tone), given a name and identity through our perception (samjna) leading to volition (samskara) and reaction of one of the six consciousnesses (vijnana) related to the six senses (the usual five + mental consciousness). We can watch all of this unfold just as the Buddha describes and, to me, that is an amazing theory of human pyschology to have produced 2 500 years ago!

However, as Jundo rightly says, in Zen we never lose sight of the fact that all of these things are part of a flowing whole, even when we are looking at particulars. I agree with Allan too:



I am, however, a newly ordained unsui and my understanding should be taken with a rather large pinch of salt.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thank you, and thank you for your teaching. Greatly appreciated.

Gassho, Allan
Sat-LaH

[Eishuu]

I am finding Red Pine's discussion of the skandhas and their relationship to emptiness really helpful in his book on the Heart Sutra:

These lines in particular: "Thus all Five Skandhas are emptiness, and emptiness is all Five Skandhas, both individually and as a whole. But how can this be? If emptiness is equal to form, how can it also be equal to the other skandhas? This is because no matter how many skandhas or aspects we analyze our experience into, they are all delusions. They do not exist other than as delusions. Thus there is no limit to the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin."

And: "Form is simply a name. Likewise, sensation, perception, memory, and consciousness are simply names. Shariputra, the self is simply a name.There is no self that can ever be found. And it cannot be found because it is empty. ... [E]ven space and nirvana are defined by the same emptiness as the skandhas and thus do not exist outside of the skandhas."

Shoshin, I really enjoyed the Godzilla story.

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Tai Shi]

I would really like a real discussion of the actual skandas and as to how they work or do not work. Please discuss the actual nature of the actual skandas as described in the Heart Sutra, and empty form and form that is empty how such description fits into my real everyday life, and how I will find my old age,I am 66, and how this figures into death. I am an odd Buddhist in that I also follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Resurrection of the Son of God, I find no descripency between teaching of the Heart Sutra and the teaching of Jesus. They are of different ilk and really fit nicely together. I'm into a position of contemplating my own death and I will die peacefully with the help of both the Buddha and Jesus, so please anyone, comment about how you see yourself in relationships with living and dieing with teaching of the Buddha and Jesus, one or the other or both. I might tell you that I also wear the rakasu the Sangha gave me as a gift and sit nearly every day, and attend a Christian church, Tai Shi, sat today, Gassho

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk

[Kokuu]

Hi Tai Shi

Jundo's description of the skandas and how they work was presented above. As has been said, they are a mental model of how the brain works.

So, what are the traditional Skandas? Like all things in traditional Buddhist Philosophy, it depends which philosopher you ask. Philosophers disagree on the details. But, basically, you have:

1-Matter: The "stuff" (we might say atoms and molecules) that are the world (and your body) and exist without regard to whether your sentient mind is perceiving them or not.

2-Sensations- The sensing of the matter by the sense organs. These sensations are soon interpreted as pleasant, painful or neutral (we now know that, much as primitive Buddhist psychology described, much of that judging goes on even before you perceive the sensation. For example, the brain knows pain and danger even before you more deeply or consciously perceive that you are touching a hot stove).

3-Perceptions- Your mind perceiving, inside the brain, data from the senses. You become aware of the raw, incoming data inside your brain.

4-Mental Formations- Now your brain does all the complex processing, interpreting, organizing, reacting and responding to the data. You give it names, think about it, form opinions, likes and dislikes, moral judgments, have emotional reactions, formulate responses, and actions. etc. You do all the stuff that your brain (and any animal brain, though humans do more of it) does in interpreting, thinking about and acting in the world.

5-Consciousness is that extra thing that makes you alive. You are not merely a computer processing data (or a simple insect brain), but are self-aware, alive. The closest example I can give you, perhaps, is a new born baby that at first, cannot interpret the sense data beyond basic sensations like "pain" "pleasure" "hungry". Only gradually does it develop a more complex interpretation of the world, for example," this is my hand, this is my foot" (baby's actually have to discover this), "they are part of "me", the crib is not "me"" etc. A complex world view starts to develop and, only then, does the baby become "self-aware" and conscious of itself as itself (it probably was not self aware until that time, and was just raw experiencing. Now, the baby is aware that it is "me").

As for death, I think this is something that you can only come to terms with through personal reflection and it sounds like you are doing just that. One of the three marks of existence recognised by the Buddha is impermanence. We are subject to this just as much as any other thing. Most of the time we try to avoid thinking about this but as our life goes on it and the body starts to creak and crack it becomes harder and harder to avoid.

When I live I try to live the best as I can in each moment. When I am dying, I hope to do the same.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jishin]

The Five Skandhas

Hi Tai Chi,

One way to look at it is that you are a cookie and I am a cookie. The shape of your cookie and mine are different. Cookies are made from the same dough. Cookie is form. Dough is emptiness. You can get more specific and break down the cookie into little scoops (skandhas) but it is still dough.

Death is just a word to describe a point in time. Birth is just a word in time. There is time to sleep and time to wake up. In Buddhist terms, when you go to sleep there is just sleep and when you wake up there is just waking up. You do this your entire life. You go to bed and just sleep. When you wake up in the morning, there is just waking up. One day you go to sleep and don't wake up. You have done this your entire life. It's not a problem. When you are fully awake, there is no sleep. When you are fully sleeping, there is no waking up. Just be fully awake now and there is no problem. When there is sleep, sleep well and there is no problem.

Babies and children sometimes are good sleepers. When its time to sleep they go to bed and sleep and when its time to wake up they just wake up. No fuss. Some babies and children are bad sleepers. They don't want to go to sleep. They wan't to stay up as long as they can. Yet they must go to sleep too. When we sleep, we just sleep. Its just a point in time. Don't fear sleep. It's just a point in time. Some babies and children wake up well and some wake up grumpy. The ones that wake up grumpy sometimes fear waking up because it may hurt. Yet we all wake up. It's just a point time.

Being awake is form. Being asleep is form. Time is form. In emptiness there is no time. When you are fully awake (empty) you have no concept of time. When you are fully asleep you have no concept of time. If everyone could get this, then as Boddhisatvas our job would be done.

I think the trick is to perceive that we are neither cookies nor dough. Not just dough or cookies. Not one, not two. We are an ever evolving cookie to dough and back and forth, just like the waves arising and dying back into the sea. Back, forth and beyond the sea.

So really there is no death or life yet there is and there is not and there is. Now you see me and now you don't like the peekaboo game with children. Now you see and now you don't. Your wave form came from the sea and is going back to the sea. Yet before the sea there was...

Regarding Christianity, this is what I think:

Genesis 1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God = emptiness, universe, dough, sea...

Form = heavens, earth, humans...

Jesus = human (form) and god (emptiness) ?

Buddhists (form) may get into trouble with christians when they say that they are god (empty, universe, etc.) because christians believe in duality (god vs. humans)

How to reconcile this?

When practicing just practice. When doing Shikantaza, just drop all judgements and just be. If you are christian, fine. If not christian, fine. If both, fine. If neither, fine. Just sit. Then get up and just go be whatever it is that you are. Chop wood, carry water. Be a christian, muslin, jew, Buddhist or whatever you like to call yourself. Maybe in sitting you are form, emptiness, both, neither or a combination thereof. Maybe you have no name. When you get up then just be the form that lives in this world of suffering.

My 2 cents.

Gassho, Jishin, ST


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[Shokai]

sawaki death.jpg

gassho, Shokai

sat/LAH

[Amelia]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4811[/ATTACH]

gassho, Shokai

sat/LAH

HA! Thanks for that one!

Gassho, sat today, lah

[Mp]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4811[/ATTACH]

gassho, Shokai

sat/LAH

Ain't that the truth!

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Shokai]

I just love the expression on his face

gassho, Shokai

sat/LAH