Nothing to attain?

[sandworm]

Thank you Jundo and Taigu for weighing in. For my first question posted on this forum, the wise responses have been overwhelming! What other place on the internets can you post something like that and not get flamed by at least half the users?

Much appreciated everyone. This is such a caring community, it is my honor to be a part of it.

[George]

is there something to attain, or isn't there?

I think there is much to attain, but striving to attain it can be a problem in itself.
I found some Buddhists in another group that talked a lot about “Enlightenment” and although they agreed they had no clue what it was they did agree that they were striving towards it, and even had discussions about how many lifetimes “Enlightenment” is possible within.
I realised that sitting or doing good deeds “in order to become enlightened” was pointless but sitting or doing good deeds could be the acts, goals and ends in themselves. I left and don’t have any desire to attain enlightenment now, although I also have no desire to not attain enlightenment.

To answer your question one has to live. Books won t do, they will add stuff on stuff.

I suspect books have helped me get to my current point of understanding but I also find them helpful when talking to non-Buddhists who are interested in Buddhism. I work at a university so logical, and rather academic, arguments are usually more persuasive to people than “I have mediated for over ten years and spoken to some monks and priests and think…”.
I find non-Buddhist philosophers very helpful as some reach conclusions that can support basic Buddhist understanding. I have criticised David Hume quite a bit for his basic principles in a recent essay but his understanding of the “self” as an illusion we create has helped shape arguments in favour of my own understanding of rebirth and karma.

I did see a brilliant line written recently on amazon which I think fits well here:

"Reading about Zen is like reading about swimming: truly useful only if you act the practice." - SandeChan (Priest, Lam Te School)

[Kokuu]

I really like this question, Duane, as it points to something at the heart of practice.

My teacher talks about the difference between method and results. Method is something we can (largely) have control over in the type of practice we do and the regularity and enthusiasm with which we do it. Results are none of our business. As soon as we try to attain a result, practice is largely derailed.

The very moment is perfect as it is, and yet also not so. There is nothing to attain. But plenty to engage with. Attainment is a thing of the future, what we have attained is a thing of the past. You can guess the remainder for yourself ;-)

Keep practising and attainment will happen. Or it won't. Life (and practice) is like that.

[RichardH]

In my experience the thing to "attain", is overcoming a deeply ingrained habitual way of being. It is a habitual way of being that is so pervasive, it is the invisible "normal" most people share, like the common ground we walk on. This habitual way is a kind of samadhi, an absorption, in the continual stream of compulsive thinking.. thinking that is felt to be safe and real, and essential, for keeping "me" afloat.. which it actually is. This mental "theater" of "Me" and my hopes and fears, is like an enclosed bubble of highs and lows, ....swinging between this and that, going around and around. It is shut in. It requires hearing the Dharma, and putting in the effort to go against the inertia of this habit/karma, and just sit, without following the compelling emotional narrative.... When the absorption is broken, and thinking isn't followed, and the running stops, .....the virtual bubble vanishes, and I realize that everything is already perfectly complete as-is, open and edgeless. Suffering and all dukkha, ceases.

So there is definitely something to do, and it takes discipline and faith because the karma of delusion is so deep and old (the Buddha could not fathom a beginning to it). To sit and not follow the narrative, goes against the fiber of habit. Being really thick headed, it took me almost fifteen years of sitting to actually just sit, and I really mean just sit... nothing special, and realize the simplicity of non-Dukkha. It was like I was always searching for solid ground , never satisfied or secure, ....and then one day just looking at the reaching itself, the dukkha, and giving-up into/as the feeling. ...then finding that I was sitting on solid ground the whole time. My favorite image of the Buddha is the "Earth touching Mudra". Instead of pointing to transcendent heaven, he is just touching the ground, and it is sane and clear and solid. So... there is nothing to attain at all. Just the old blind habit of reaching which is seen through and dropped. ..

...also it isn't a one shot deal, practice goes on, because greed, anger, and ignorance is apparently beginningless. And in that ongoing practice there is ongoing transformation all by itself... in just sitting every day.

That's my best understand up until now. maybe it will change.

Gassho, kojip

[Jundo]

It is so hard for people to pierce that "nothing to attain" means "nothing to attain" and TOTALLY AT HOME. So at home, the home is home.

'Tis to be thoroughly "at home walking in one's own moccassins", thoroughly "at one moccassin home", thoroughly "hitting home the moccassin, always walking never owned".

Are you looking for more? Not enough freedom for you in that? What more could you possibly look for when nothing is lacking? By looking, you actually dig the hole of lack.

Yet people keep looking for it, the fix to fill the hunger ... the next spiritual high or higher ... and so they never find ... led by teachers who are like drug pushers, selling an addiction.

Most Buddhism is a wild goose chase. Wild geese leave no traces.

Gassho, Jundo

[Mp]

...also it isn't a one shot deal, practice goes on, because greed, anger, and ignorance is apparently beginningless. And in that ongoing practice there is ongoing transformation all by itself... in just sitting every day.

Nice Kojip ... I like that.

Gassho
Michael

[Jundo]

... Being really thick headed, it took me almost fifteen years of sitting to actually just sit, and I really mean just sit... nothing special, and realize the simplicity of non-Dukkha. It was like I was always searching for solid ground , never satisfied or secure, ....and then one day just looking at the reaching itself, the dukkha, and giving-up into/as the feeling. ...then finding that I was sitting on solid ground the whole time. My favorite image of the Buddha is the "Earth touching Mudra". Instead of pointing to transcendent heaven, he is just touching the ground, and it is sane and clear and solid. So... there is nothing to attain at all. Just the old blind habit of reaching which is seen through and dropped. ..

...also it isn't a one shot deal, practice goes on, because greed, anger, and ignorance is apparently beginningless. And in that ongoing practice there is ongoing transformation all by itself... in just sitting every day.

As fine a way of expressin' Practice-Enlightenment as can be.

Gassho, J

[Jinyo]

Kojip

Willow

[galen]

either/or !?

It seems the expression 'not two' may lead to some confusion. Expressed alone, the coin cannot stand up-right, without the other side of 'not one'. It may be compared, in relativity (there is not choice on that matter, of which teaches, there is the choice of no relativity in no-mindedness), to another double or paradoxical truth that there is no up without down, no high without some understanding to be compared to what could be called low. 'Not two' creates separation/other and may confuse one with the fact that duality is real.

In ZMBM, Suzuki expresses it in the opening chapter on Posture, when explaining the sitting nature of leg crossing... "The position expresses the oneness of duality: not two and not one." And goes on to say that is the most important teaching... ie, not two not one. "Each one of us is both dependent and independent." He uses the coin analogy in other chapters, but here when expressing mind and body as... they both have their end but at the 'same' time they both exist eternally.... "Even though we say mind and body, they are actually two sides of one coin."

[Kyonin]

Nothing to attain is to just be with things as they are.

You walk, but only walk for this step. Nothing more. Then take another step and that's a full arrival. Dropping all expectations and desires, just be with what is.

But at the same time you can have goals in life, without creating fantasies and getting attached to them.

And sit. And sit some more.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Shinko]

sitting at work today (having not read this thread) my thoughts were "does one strive for enlightenment/attainment or smile at the realization that they have already acquired it?".

[Jundo]

In ZMBM, Suzuki expresses it in the opening chapter on Posture, when explaining the sitting nature of leg crossing... "The position expresses the oneness of duality: not two and not one." And goes on to say that is the most important teaching... ie, not two not one. "Each one of us is both dependent and independent." He uses the coin analogy in other chapters, but here when expressing mind and body as... they both have their end but at the 'same' time they both exist eternally.... "Even though we say mind and body, they are actually two sides of one coin."

When one can sit such that, through and through to the marrow, one realizes that merely crossing the legs and holding the hands in mudra is the only place to be in all space and time, the only place one can be, the only such action to do or which needs doing in that moment ... one is well on one's way.

How rarely does one encounter any aspect of life so whole, fulfilled, with nothing lacking. We are always on an endless search for more more more of the things we love, less less less of those we do not.

Then, rising from the cushion, we go about all life's tasks in such way ... thus endlessly dropping away greed, anger and division in/amid/through-and-through this samsaric world of greed, anger and division ... beginninglessly realizing that there is no place in need of going, nothing to add even as we try to make a better life-self-world as we can.

It ain't rocket science.

Gassho, J

[Mp]

When one can sit such that, through and through to the marrow, one realizes that merely crossing the legs and holding the hands in mudra is the only place to be in all space and time, the only place one can be, the only such action to do or which needs doing in that moment ... one is well on one's way.

How rarely does one encounter any aspect of life so whole, fulfilled, with nothing lacking. We are always on an endless search for more more more of the things we love, less less less of those we do not.

Then, rising from the cushion, we go about all life's tasks in such way ... thus endlessly dropping away greed, anger and division in/amid/through-and-through this samsaric world of greed, anger and division ... beginninglessly realizing that there is no place in need of going, nothing to add even as we try to make a better life-self-world as we can.

It ain't rocket science.

Gassho, J

Thank you Jundo, I always love your clear expression of practice.

Gassho
Michael

[galen]

When one can sit such that, through and through to the marrow, one realizes that merely crossing the legs and holding the hands in mudra is the only place to be in all space and time, the only place one can be, the only such action to do or which needs doing in that moment ... one is well on one's way.

How rarely does one encounter any aspect of life so whole, fulfilled, with nothing lacking. We are always on an endless search for more more more of the things we love, less less less of those we do not.

Then, rising from the cushion, we go about all life's tasks in such way ... thus endlessly dropping away greed, anger and division in/amid/through-and-through this samsaric world of greed, anger and division ... beginninglessly realizing that there is no place in need of going, nothing to add even as we try to make a better life-self-world as we can.

It ain't rocket science.

Gassho, J

Unless you are a scientist, but then `still...


Gassho

[Jundo]

Unless you are a scientist, but then `still...


Gassho

Actually, this is a good time to bring up something you mentioned, Galen, on another thread.

I got weekly booklets and studied this new thought form and after about a year and a half of meditating this way, by accident, naively fell deep inside, also noticing I was barely using any breath, but could feel out side body parts, but felt fully engulfed. This they called super-consciousness or early stages of Samadi. I could `fall-in at the drop of a pen, sitting or laying, no special positioning needed. I used the direct will power not to think, and stayed with it over quite a period till I arrived in this very beautiful state, and noticed it was there with me out `there with other.... Our teachers probably would not approve, and with out a goal to get back `there (its back `there but I am not clinging to it, because that makes it much harder, an accident will happen again at one point), but just recently I am doing what I did then and with eyes closed, this seems to be my most comfortable path for now. I sit and I lay , and it is getting better and better.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ll=1#post90009

What you describe may be a lovely and powerful Practice, but it is not what I would call goalless Shikantaza as we Practice here. Why? The reason is rather subtle.

When we sit, we just sit, radically dropping all need or encouragement of some "super-consciousness" or deep experience of samadhi. The reason is simply that, to the marrow, we drop the self's need to get somewhere other than here. Now, if "here" happens to be some deep flavor of samadhi or the like ... that is fine. However, neither do we sit with any desire or attraction to be or remain there over here. In fact, we tend to move on and return to this ordinary awareness, right here in the room where we sit. If "here" happens to be boredom or thinking about the laundry, that is fine too ... although we likewise drop all desire for such thoughts too. We drop all desire for any thoughts ... even thoughts that we want to be either free of or filled with desire (thus realizing true freedom even from such desire!). We let them drift away too without grabbing. We simply sit, dropping all clinging and "running after", thus letting thoughts and emotions (of greed or anger and attachment) drift out of mind without grabbing or stirring them up and becoming all tangled in their net. The radical forsaking of both "special or unusual states of mind" and "getting tangled in ordinary emotions, thought trains and attachments" --IS-- a most special state attained. By repeatedly falling into either some deep concentrated samadhi which pulls one from this world (much as if one were always sitting in some drug induced trance) ... or indulging in thinking long trains of ordinary, unspectacular thought such as "how much I love/hate peanut butter" ... one is losing the point and power of Shikantaza.

Now, of course, rising from the cushion ... we can engage in all manner of activities as a form of "Shikantaza". We can chant the Heart Sutra, change a tire or baby diaper, clean the monastery kitchen or the kitchen at home, work in the garden or the office, with the same core of non-attachment amid attachments, peace at the heart of life's messy pieces, non-doing in/as/through-and-through the 1000 things in need of doing in our busy day. That might include, I suppose, a period devoted to tasting some samadhi as much as making peanut butter sandwiches (both sacred acts, by the way, when the magic of the most ordinary is realized as such).

However, when sitting ... we just sit. We do not seek to feel peaceful, to feel bliss, to feel some other-worldly state or anything such. We simply sit ... crossing the legs and holding the hands in mudra as the only place to be in all space and time, the only place one can be, the only such action to do or which needs doing in that moment.

It is not the samadhi state so much or lack thereof (Dogen and others' definition of "Zen Samadhi" was unrelated to attaining or not attaining such states), but your words "and it is getting better and better."

For us, the Buddha's revelation in seeing the morning star was most ordinary and wonderfully extra-ordinary at once! Here, just here, is here all along ... when one's eyes are finally open, and the mind is open to see. Peanut Butter from the jar is, when tasted with a Buddha's tongue beyond and piercing right through both aversion and attraction (and peanut allergies and the moderation of a healthy diet ), the flavor of all time and space, simply ambrosia.

Gassho, Jundo