Buddhist philosophy on self injurious behavior and suicide.

[Jishin]

Anneliese,

Sorry for your loss. Suicide is so tragic.

Dr. Jamison is one of my heroes. She "came out" to the world regarding her psychiatric difficulties when no one else had the courage to do so.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyotai]

Sorry for the loss of your brother Anneliese

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

[Mp]

My brother committed suicide some years ago

I am sorry to hear this Anneliese ... much metta to you.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Shugen]

I am very sorry for your loss. Not only for your brother but also for what might have been.

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday


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[Toun]

Anneliese,

Very sorry for the loss of your brother and Metta to you and to your family.
This is a very deep and heart moving thread.

Deep bows to all of those that commented and to those that must cope with these very difficult situations in life.
This really hits close to home.

Gassho
Mike
Sat2day

[treebeard]

I am a little late to the game on this one. On selfishness and suicide I give you one man's perspective on the experience (or near experience, I guess).

Is it selfish for an animal in excruciating pain caught in a leg trap to chew it's leg off? Is it selfish for the man who has been chased by a lion and just about escaped, to collapse in exhaustion before reaching the safety of the cave just behind the hill which he can't see? Unfortunate yes, but I wouldn't term it selfish. Would it have been good if there were a person on the hill to tell him that safety was barely within reach? Yes, but in the lack of that information I don't think "selfish" is the correct term for succumbing to excruciating trial. That has been my experience with suicide (I fortunately called the hotline as soon as I noticed the signs and compelling urges coming on but many are not sufficiently self aware to separate their thoughts from who they are). We are often quick to condemn the person when they succeed in suicide rather then think of all the days they gave us, in which they were fighting and giving themselves to us despite excruciating mental anguish. Each day a chronically mentally ill person we love lives is a gift to all of us and if they happen to collapse in "suicide" one day because the battle became too much and another step was just too much, I believe we should reflect and enjoy their continued life through our memories of the many gifts they gave to us. If we do happen to be on the hill and see the haggard desperate prey of the lion approach, we should give the encouragement of safety and perhaps lighten their load enough that they may give us one more day if they can, but really, only they know their full circumstances, so if they collapse at our feet, we should not judge, we should be grateful for what they gave us in my opinion.

Anyway, I am not a professional, I am just one person that has had experiences and these are my insights from them. If Buddhism has one thing that can't be undersold it is the concept of dealing with pain. So many other philosophies promise respite in the afterlife or through miracles that may or may not arrive and lead to disappointment, Buddhism has a very down to earth approach that is replicable across different people, no deity is necessarily needed other than for perhaps instruction or example. Of course, this is only once one has reached a therapeutic level through professional help, medications and such if you are beset with a mental illness.

Much metta Anneliese. The family of a person with severe mental illness often have great suffering as well. I hope you have healed from the bad experiences and have at least some fond memories upon which you can enjoy.

Gassho,
Paul

Sat today

[Jishin]

Hi Paul,

IMHO suicide has little to do with character and can be best explained by the biopsychosocial model. Bio=genes, psycho=what you see when you look in the mirror, social=whats around you.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Heion]

Self-harm is an unskillful way to relieve the stress and dukkha of life.

Suicide is not as much of a desire to die, but of not wanting to live.

Both of these are misguided attempts at self-soothing and are ways to escape the perils of our mind.

Often times, therapy is needed, but as Jundo said it is more about addressing the core issues of learning to deal with mental suffering in a way that does not involve self injurious behaviors.

[Entai]

Metta to all those who are suffering from mental illness, to their families, friends and hopefully caregivers.

So,...
I attempted suicide in 2001. I had been diagnosed with major depressive disorder and generalized anxiety disorder. Turns out that I was misdiagnosed and the med cocktails they kept dreaming up for me were just making the situation worse. So, being deemed "medication resistant", I was given ECT treatments (electroshock). That messed up my memory and my ability to process information. And as a bonus I got to keep taking the meds that were making things worse. It sort of ruined the whole engineering career (spoiler: turned out to be a blessing in disguise). I was a mess and felt completely alone in the world.

Mental illness is a brutal thing. It produces faulty thinking by its very nature. My mind wasn't just dealing with our old friend ego-delusion. My brain was generating delusion in a big way. Horrible thoughts that had no basis in reality and just wouldn't stop. I always compare it to being set on fire. When you feel like you are being burned alive you'll do anything to put out the flames.

The idea that suicide is selfish bothers me. I think it adds to the stigma of mental illness. I can only speak of my own circumstances, and I don't feel like I made a selfish decision. In fact, I don't know that I made a decision at all. It was more of a fight or flight reaction. But there was no way to fight and no way to flee my own mind. I did what I did to make it stop.

Thankfully I didn't succeed. My advice to people suffering from mental illness is to seek help. Get second and third opinions. My misdiagnosis could have cost me my life. The correct diagnosis got me the right meds and lead to a happy and relatively stable life (however I have friends who might take issue with the "stable" part). I also strongly advise against ECT. If your doc thinks you need it, get a forth and fifth opinion.

My advice if you know someone who is suicidal.. Help them with their medical needs (finding a doc, making it to appointments, getting and understanding all the important information, etc). Other than that, just be present for them. Listen when they want to talk. Be honest, but kind. Don't judge them. Don't judge yourself.

Well, that was a little more than I intended to write. I apologize if any of it came across as insensitive. It's just my take on things.

Anyway, that's that.

Gassho,
Entai
#SatToday

[Shugen]

Thank you to all that shared their experiences. I don't think that there is any "one" right perspective on this. I very much appreciate Entai's suggestion:

"...if you know someone who is suicidal.. help them with their medical needs (finding a doc, making it to appointments, getting and understanding all the important information, etc). Other than that, just be present for them. Listen when they want to talk. Be honest, but kind. Don't judge them. Don't judge yourself."

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday


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[Mp]

Thank you to all that shared their experiences. I don't think that there is any "one" right perspective on this. I very much appreciate Entai's suggestion:

"...if you know someone who is suicidal.. help them with their medical needs (finding a doc, making it to appointments, getting and understanding all the important information, etc). Other than that, just be present for them. Listen when they want to talk. Be honest, but kind. Don't judge them. Don't judge yourself."

Entai, I echo Shugen's words ... thank you for sharing your experience, I feel these words are very valuable.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Diarmuid1]

Sadly, taking one's life is most often seen as a completely selfless option. The victim of such actions is often under the perception that the only way that they can contribute meaningfully to the lives of others is to remove themselves from the equation. Suicide is a truly terrible illness.

SatToday

[Diarmuid1]

This buddhist views both as immensely sad. I work with Samaritans in the UK and there are many calls from people who are self-harm and who contemplate suicide.

My view of both acts is that they are symptomatic of the delusion that we swim in. We often feel the need to find an answer to problems and this, I think, is one of the defining characteristics of our delusion.

For the most part, the people I speak to suffer from suicidal urges or the urge to harm themselves. These are not conscious decisions made by people who are in the best place to make them. This is why I find it so sad.

What I find inspiring is that, despite the illness they are suffering, a part of them resists and pushes them to dial the number that puts them in contact with me. I don't know how much help I am to them, but they are immensely helpful to me.

SatToday

[Zenmei]

Sadly, taking one's life is most often seen as a completely selfless option. The victim of such actions is often under the perception that the only way that they can contribute meaningfully to the lives of others is to remove themselves from the equation. Suicide is a truly terrible illness.

SatToday

This is very true. It's hard for me to believe now, but earlier this year I was suicidally depressed. I wrestled with the idea that my kids would be better off if I were dead.
The idea of ending my suffering was appealing, but I survived for years with that temptation. It never became a real possibility until I started to believe that it would effect a positive change in the world. I came very close, but luckily I said the right thing at the right time to the right person, and I was able to get the help I needed. Now I shudder to think how badly killing myself would have damaged my family.
That's the trouble with delusion, it looks like truth from the inside.

Gassho, dudley
#sat

[Seido]

Like many here, I have been touched by suicide in different ways. Deep bows for those who have shared their stories, and to those who haven't but still have them in their heart.

One view point I didn't see mentioned here yet was self sacrifice.

If suicide was performed with clear mind as a means of compassionate self sacrifice to benefit other living beings, it could be considered by some to be different than suicide from dukkha. An example that comes to mind are the monks who self-immolated in protest of persecution in Vietnam. The goal of their suicide was to benefit others.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just saying.

Gassho,
Seido
SatToday