Buddhist philosophy on self injurious behavior and suicide.

[Jiken]

Hi Willow

I respectfully am going to have to disagree with you. There is no loss of empathy in taking a stance against a person who has committed or is considering suicide, a completely selfish act. In fact their is great empathy. No judgement made against the person but the act itself. If they could only see the devastation and repercussions.

For me the answer is no and i would not give a person permission to do it. I myself will not support the decision of suicide (other than euthanasia) but fight against it.

I find it ironic to think disagreeing with suicide would be seen as having a lack of empathy for people.

Maybe I am wrong maybe. But no one dies on my watch I I can help it.

A disclaimer here. I really do respect all opinions on this forum as this is a powerful thread with a lot at stake.

Gassho

Daido

[Taigu]

Hi Daido,

Cannot agree more with you when you say you would do anything to stop it. As to the "selfish act", allow me to disagree, the person might be sick, mentally sick or totally deluded by the self but not selfish.

Thank you for your patience

Gassho


Taigu

[Jinyo]

I understand where you're coming from Daido and I respect your view.

For myself - I do not feel comfortable with labelling all suicides (apart from euthanasia) as 'a completely selfish act'.

This would mean that the person was totally in control of their actions and deliberately setting out to selfishly hurt others. I feel it's a bit dualistic to separate the act from the person - because the act is the manifestation of the despair that the person feels.

Anyway - this is a complex topic and I don't think I can do it justice with my few words.

Gassho

Willow

[Jiken]

Food for thought for sure. I was not considering mental in the sense of unable to care for himself completely. I can see that. I have seen that. At the same I believe that while a person may have mental problems even serious ones they in most cases should not completely absolve him of all responsibility.

No perfect answer. No pride just how to better help.

Gassho Taigu and Willow

[Jundo]

Hi Daido,

Cannot agree more with you when you say you would do anything to stop it. As to the "selfish act", allow me to disagree, the person might be sick, mentally sick or totally deluded by the self but not selfish.

Thank you for your patience

Gassho


Taigu

Yes, yes.

Even in the case of a mass murderer who commits a heinous act, for example, harming many other sentient beings ... it is typical in Buddhism to say that the real "wrong doer" is the greed, anger and ignorance within the murderer, not the person himself. That does not mean we do not do what may be necessary to stop the murderer and save lives, including (in the majority Buddhist opinion, some might disagree) violent police action if needed to protect others and stop the murderer. It does not mean that we forgive the person on all levels, or do not put them in jail. It simply means that, deep down, we look at the murderer as also a victim of his inner suffering, anger, etc. ... the true murderer.

Gassho, J

[Rich]

Something else to consider is that some accidents are viewed as suicide and some suicides are viewed as accidents. The only real response is compassion and understanding for the living friends and family.

[Jakudo]

I now view violence in any form as a sickness, something that needs to be healed.

[Jishin]

There is a book on the subject: "Night Falls Fast:

Understanding Suicide" by Kay Redfield Jamison.

Gasho,

JC

[Stephanie]

The SHORT answer to the question of how a Buddhist should deal with the matter of suicide and the matter of self-injury is "compassion." And compassion requires understanding, which requires (wait for it) that we not be afraid to truly, wholeheartedly use our capacity for empathy to enter into psychologically uncomfortable territory. You don't have to have been suicidal to empathize with someone who is, but you do have to be able to understand, without judging, how a person might have come to that state of mind, and what it might feel like. When you can put yourself there, it becomes a lot harder to moralize about it from the proverbial high horse.

The LONGER answer:

I too must agree with those who have taken exception to the popular cliche that "suicide is selfish." I mean, sure, it is selfish to a degree, as are many human actions we would not think to characterize as such, like eating breakfast in the morning, but not in the sense most people mean when they use it. People kill themselves for different reasons, and sometimes suicide is done as an act of anger or revenge, but I could say that the overwhelming common factor in suicide is an inability to cope with a present level of pain or distress. What you have to understand is that in most cases it takes a HUGE amount of pain or distress to override a person's life preserving instincts. Especially if the act is done after a long period of contemplation rather than impulsively. People tend to have to "psych" themselves up to do it, and many, if not most, attempts end up being quasi-lethal -- overdoses not strong enough to kill, nonlethal self-injury, and so on, which I believe has to do with how hard it is to override that instinct. So a person has to really be pushed to be able to make that fatal action.

I think as Buddhists it is our duty - our vow - to expand our capacity for empathy and compassion. And to enter compassionately into the realm of the suicidal is to understand that the amount of pain a person on the brink is being asked to endure, without any certainty it will ever get better, requires a huge amount of SELFLESSNESS on that person's part - to be willing to suffer incredibly by continuing to live, so as not to hurt his or her loved ones. For those who do finally say, I can no longer tolerate this pain for others' sake, it is not a simple case of "selfishness." It is simply failure to be a saint, a martyr, for others. Can we really condemn people for failing to be able to live COMPLETELY for the sake of others? Are we really THAT morally superior?

The problem of suicide is the problem of ignorance. I base this statement on personal and professional insight. Despite how I may have been mischaracterized here, I have not been suicidal since I was 13 years old (I am now 29), and even that period was fleeting and without action or any serious sustained intent. However, it was enough that I have some direct experience of what that state of mind is like. I am not alone among those who experienced such extreme states of mind as an adolescent, and what I was amazed by was how, three years later, the amazing turns my life had taken that I would never have imagined at that time. Research has shown that depressed people are actually physically less capable of imagining positive outcomes or even recalling positive memories. The neurochemistry of depressive states makes the chemical pathways to positive thoughts less able to become activated. The problem of suicide, at least in non-impulsive cases, is not as much to do with the emotional (or physical) pain, but more to do with the thought it will never get better, which almost always is untrue. Life is change and impermanence - and that is as true of the "bad stuff" as the good. That is why one of my number one purposes as a social worker is to "instill hope." To help a person who is mentally blocked from seeing the good aspects of his or her life or the good possibilities see and consider those, and act from them.

My current job actually makes me part of the process of involuntary commitment in my state, in which I assess and decide if a person needs to be temporarily hospitalized against their will to prevent harm to him or herself or others. I would say the majority of cases I see in this aspect of my job are those of people who are psychotic and simply incapable of caring for or protecting themselves, but I deal with many suicidal people as well, especially in the other part of my job where I assess people for outpatient mental health services. Two common components of suicidality, whether impulsive or planned, are being overwhelmed and being without hope.

For people who are either easily overwhelmed by what to others might be slight emotional stress, or who have trauma histories so profound that the average person could not even conceive of the inner struggle they endure, self-harming behaviors without suicidal intent can become a sort of "release valve" that shifts the focus from an overwhelming mind state to the sharp clarity of physical pain sensation. For some, there is symbolic meaning in masochism and the sight of blood, for some it is a way to communicate and express via the body something they may not be able to communicate to others in words, and for others yet it may be a simple, tactical neurological distraction mechanism.

To effectively prevent suicide, a person has to be able to help the suicidal person find hope and find supports and/or skills that increase his or her ability to cope with the painful feelings or circumstances driving the suicidal thoughts. Often, the very first part of the process is allowing a person to feel heard and respected. Knee-jerk, fearful reactions and moralizing are counterproductive - they only act to make a suicidal person feel more alone, more broken, and less hopeful. Now, in some cases, to those of us on the observing side it can seem like a person is overreacting, being "dramatic" or "manipulative." I have to struggle with my own reactions daily to people I see as giving up or going into crisis way too easily.

In the last few weeks I have noted how quickly I am judging people and have seen the need for a "compassion rehab." As part of this, I am trying to read and learn more from people who are able to articulate their experiences of suicidal behavior and self-harm, and what I am learning is that what may look like "drama" to a jaded outsider is in many cases a HUGE internal struggle. In some cases there is what in clinical terms is called a "low distress tolerance," in which even small stressors can precipitate a huge internal reaction - "freaking out," in the non-clinical term. The bottom line is that it is no different whether a person is flooded with stress due to circumstances that would be overwhelming to anyone, or is flooded with stress because they have a brain that is less able to counteract stress. Either way, they are overwhelmed by a state of mind that doesn't know how to deal with itself. When you are overwhelmed by the feeling your mind can't handle itself, that is so incredibly frightening it can lead to panic - and impulsive behavior.

[Jishin]

Stephanie,

Thank you for your input.

Gassho,

JC

[Omoi Otoshi]

Thank you everybody for your wisdom,

In my experience, people kill themselves because they see no other way out, out of desperation. Up to a certain point, responsability to family may keep a person alive, but beyond that, the world becomes so contracted that there is no space for anything but one or two dark thoughts running in tight circles (as Kojip described it in a thread about anger). Indeed the three poisons are the real killer. The person is innocent. The precept about not killing does not apply, because to that person, there is no choice.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Jishin]

Thank you all for your input.

There is a book on the subject: "Night Falls Fast:Understanding Suicide" by Kay Redfield Jamison.

She is a world renowned psychologist on mood disorders and this is a good book and an easy read.

The brain is the body organ responsible for decision making. The act of suicide is made by a body organ that is not working well, a cancer if you will.

Sometimes people are lucky and they have a good support system that includes good families, doctors, psychologists, counselors, and a less severe form of this cancer.

Sometimes the cancer is more aggressive, but the resources to treat it are still enough.

Sometimes the cancer is aggressive, but people are lucky and survive its ugly grasp.

Sometimes faith and morality prevent the act. Sometimes faith and morality cause the act.

Sometimes its accidental, a cry for help that turns lethal.

I cry for the souls that are affected by this cancer. Their families, their friends, their counselors, their doctors, their animals, and mostly for the departed ones.

Gassho,

JC

[Rich]

Thank you Stephanie for sharing your insightful experience.

"I cry for the souls that are affected by this cancer. Their families, their friends, their counselors, their doctors, their animals, and mostly for the departed ones.

Gassho,

JC"

me too

[Daijo]

I lost a very dear friend to suicide about 3 years ago. There were so many victims.

[Mp]

I have not had much to say in regards to this thread, but you all have shared some wonderful insight, thank you.

Gassho
Michael