On Zen Training in Community

[Bion]

If sitting together in zoom is our Zazen, then The forum is like the rest of the monastery where we bump into each other and talk... What do you think?

Oh, I’d say everything else is the rest of the monastery. We talk through private messages, at Tea Houses, before and after the scheduled sits in many occasions, over Skype, through social media, via FaceTime, imessage, WhatsApp, the Insight Timer group etc … The forum itself is probably not quite like a Facebook group, and definitely not like Reddit, in the sense that we use way more restraint and are more mindful of what we say, how and when. The “Three sentence rule” and “Sat” are a way of ensuring we remember that. Once you’ve been here long enough you’ll realize there is a pattern. Many of us come in, are maybe more talkative, look for answers, have many questions ( usually same questions always ) and then we slowly settle into practicing together and kind of relax into a bit more silence when it comes to the forum.
Sorry for jumping in like this, I know your question was to someone else.

Gassho
sat and lah

[Kaitan]

Once you’ve been here long enough you’ll realize there is a pattern. Many of us come in, are maybe more talkative, look for answers, have many questions ( usually same questions always )

I've definitely noticed this over the time!

As others have said previously, it is more encouraging to express ourselves in this place, not only because of the digital, but since almost all the members do really care and pay attention while reading the messages, as opposed to other forums. So that already tells a lot about this Sangha, it's not perfect, doesn't have to be.



stlah, Kaitan

[Hosai]

Oh, I’d say everything else is the rest of the monastery. We talk through private messages, at Tea Houses, before and after the scheduled sits in many occasions, over Skype, through social media, via FaceTime, imessage, WhatsApp, the Insight Timer group etc … The forum itself is probably not quite like a Facebook group, and definitely not like Reddit, in the sense that we use way more restraint and are more mindful of what we say, how and when. The “Three sentence rule” and “Sat” are a way of ensuring we remember that. Once you’ve been here long enough you’ll realize there is a pattern. Many of us come in, are maybe more talkative, look for answers, have many questions ( usually same questions always ) and then we slowly settle into practicing together and kind of relax into a bit more silence when it comes to the forum.
Sorry for jumping in like this, I know your question was to someone else.

Gassho
sat and lah

Hmmmm seems like silence in zazen, silence in the forum/monastery and a lot of whispering. But I suppose this also would encourage people to spend less time playing on their phone/ computer and more time engaging IRL. Which makes sense. Thank you, that answer makes the most sense so far.

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

[Hosai]

I've definitely noticed this over the time!

As others had said previously, it is more encouraging to express ourselves in this place, not only because of the digital, but since almost all the members, do really care and pay attention while reading the messages, as opposed to other forums. So that already tells a lot about this Sangha, it's not perfect, doesn't have to be.



stlah, Kaitan

Yes I have little to no experience in any other online forum or any other social media, so the whole situation is quite new to me.

sat/ah

_/\_

Matt

[Alina]

Anyway I really enjoy your frank, to-the-point posts. Are you thinking about Jukai (or perhaps you have done so already?)

Thank you! I will be joining everyone for Ango, and I am thinking about Jukai, but I'm not sure if I will take Jukai this time, my work is really not leaving me much bandwidth this days... I don't know yet.


Gassho
Alina
stlah

[Choujou]

Hi Jay, I feel I can be somewhat to blame for some of the recent zen vomit... If you have been practising a while your intimacy with certain expressions and ways of thinking (or not thinking) can get a bit much (I refer to this as the "stink" of zen) which is why I love people who are newer to the path. It allows me to realize that all paths are relative, equal, self contained, complete, perfect and lacking nothing.

If you live 20 years or 100 years there is a sense that those lives were as complete as they could be. There is no "getting ahead, or behind". I consider myself to have been practising seriously for 24 years and am only now in a position to take Jukai (precepts). Some people pass all three major books of koans in a few years and some struggle on one for their whole life. Its all relative... That being said, just because we have experience doesn't mean we have to pretend we don't... You can only speak from your personal experience. If you tell me you have seen a ghost I may or may not believe you, but what does it matter what I think?

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

Matt,

Thank you, you make some good points on needlessly placing limitations on the self. I didn’t consider that… something to think about! Thanks! I am realizing I do this a lot!

Funny you mention…I have seen a few ghosts! …stories for another time though

Gassho,
Jay

Sat/Lah today

[Soka]

I suppose I am one of the lurkers. Although recently I have been a bit more chatty.

My participation in Treeleaf is mostly to sit and read, follow things on YouTube and make the odd tea house when I can.

My approach to posting is to reply if I have something that provides value to someone in a thread, but otherwise, I will let things be. I don't know if I am the only one who does this, but I have written more replies than I have posted. Sometimes, upon reflection, I look back after writing and what I thought needed saying, didn't actually need to be said.

For me, the tea houses are the most social element, rather than the forum. So if you're looking for more chatty interactions, I'd recommend trying to come to one.

Gassho,
Sōka
sat

[Tai Shi]

More cannot read or write than do read or write, so a written Zen community misses most of the world, most words travel by word of mouth, like written monestaries, much is lost from member to member; hve you ever played telephone where you wisper a phraase or thought at beginning of a thought, the ones at end of 10 or 15 people find message changed to this extent unrecognizable. Simple 16 rules of behavior get shortened to do unto others, or Loving Kindness, most would never write it down because they cannot read or write, so of teachers to Buddha whoever he was or Jesus, or Mohamed or Lao Tsu teach beauty in song, poetry, counting one to ten back to ABC then comes this problem that most cannot speak common languages despite what Walt Whitman pretended was the loud yap of his soul, most dig for food in the ground because they hugar, bellies are never given enough, not because they seek enlightment, or non-enlightenment in Shikantaza which can only roughly be considered but literacy, or non-literacy, job of teachers of words even counting depends on words someone taught this teacher of math, or even counting one to ten, so how many know the joy of posting on a computer in Languages, or this English laanguage in capitol E, who would know the difference between E and e except by teacher, and culture rich enough to have paper and pencil, or tablet and chisel for every one, when nine billion open mouths all seek to be fed. Where is transperancy in a top dog scratch way to bread world, gems of nightengales simply lost from human heart except those gifted like Homer or Basho, which or who can remember millions of words, gifts of silver throated prayer, so let stand that a written Zendo by nature is elitest, and disregards mos t of the world with its electronic saviors, words, with women, black or brown neglected as we try to live life out of its rality. How many Black or Brown or Women arwe priests in Zen or any religion told by western White folk who hold the silver spoon? All except Jundo and me came here at here later than me, and I suppose that if all stayed Zendo, or Sangha, or Community would be buying twelve priests because one cannot teach an abundance of students, and why do so many just walk even priests as some, even most, will do from Treeleaf Zendo. The Sangha counts on this.

Great Gassho
sat/lah

[Hosai]

More cannot read or write than do read or write, so a written Zen community misses most of the world, most words travel by word of mouth, like written monestaries, much is lost from member to member; hve you ever played telephone wher you wisper a phraase or thought at beginning of a thought, the ones at end og 10 or 15 people find message changed to extent unrecognizable.

And the ones that can read and write can't read and write. and the message travels by many eyes and many mouths. Where The Whispers are not Chinese, Japanese, English or silent.

Simple 16 rules of behavior get shortened to do unto others, or Loving Kindness, most would never write it down because they cannot read or write, jo of teachers to teach beauty in song, poetry, counting one to ten back to ABC then comes this problem that most cannot speak common languages despite what Walt Whitman pretended was the loud yap of his soul, most dig for food in the ground because they aare hungry, not because they seek enlightment, or non-enlightenment in Shikantaza which can only roughly be considered bu literacy, or non-literacy, job of teachers of words even counting depends on words someone taught this teacher of math, or even counting one to ten, so how many know the joy of posting on a computer in Languages,

James Joyce and Walt Whitman knew nothing of the sound underneath and they were quoted so many times who understands who doesn't understand why are they even talking. 500,000 words in common usage. next closest is French. That's a lot of room for air and a lot of room for confusion.

or this English laanguage in capitol E, who would know the difference between E and e excep by teacher, and culture rich enough to have paper and pencil, or tablet and chisel for every one, whemn nine billion open mouths all seek to be fed. Where is transperancy in a top dog ssscratch way to bread world, gems of nightengales simply leave human heart except those gifted like Homer or Basho, which or who can remember millions of words, gifts of silver throated prayer, so let stand that a written Zendo by nature is elitest, and disregards mos t of the world with it electronic words, and women, black or brown neglected as we try to live life out of its rality. How many Black or Brown or Women arwe priests in Zen or any religion told by western White folk who hold the silver spoon?

Schools and jails and factories and mines and minds with programming. 9 billion mouths open and food all around. elitism on top of elitism on top of a head on top of a turtle. Whether Lamar or Igbo or Kono Musu or more to the east. The only person I have seen is Brenda.

Blessings and bows
sat/ah
matt

[Jundo]

And the ones that can read and write can't read and write. and the message travels by many eyes and many mouths. Where The Whispers are not Chinese, Japanese, English or silent.

James Joyce and Walt Whitman knew nothing of the sound underneath and they were quoted so many times who understands who doesn't understand why are they even talking. 500,000 words in common usage. next closest is French. That's a lot of room for air and a lot of room for confusion.

Schools and jails and factories and mines and minds with programming. 9 billion mouths open and food all around. elitism on top of elitism on top of a head on top of a turtle. Whether Lamar or Igbo or Kono Musu or more to the east. The only person I have seen is Brenda.

Blessings and bows
sat/ah
matt

What???????????????????????

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Tai Shi]

I began this thread because some I had questions about Just Lay Members practice. I have attempted to fill in the gaps as I progressed here at Treeleaf as a practictioner of Buddhism which has taken on the guise or method of Zen with guise of Zen which involves zazen, and specificaly Soto Zen in which I have learned the practice of Shikantaza or just sitting in English for ultimate Zen. This form is to be only with the reality around us, or me, without feeling a goal, hence "The goalless Goal" which is in its self a conidiction which is not a contidiction, or the paradox lies in Just sitting for if Just sitting is in its self a goal it is really a goal which is not a goall, and we state that it is not a goal because it is not a goal which in itself a goal. This paradox precludes everything we hope to attain, and this is is the atainless atainmeent. If a goal, if we do not try to experience just sitting as a reality and our goal is just sitting, then it is a goal which we do not practice. See the paradox? And, to hellp us along the path are the 16 Precepts the core of which are actually three precepts, those dealing with Wisdom, Teaching, and Sangha, Sangha meaning community, or extended family,the thee to follow which are broken down into two parts the first ten, then the last 6, all of which form the 16. One is to attain the 16 Precepts before of which is/ are the three precepts, hence 19 precepts, so these are meant to be a guide to just sitting or the way, which goes to a goal which is part of natural reality, which is directed by the four vows which have in a first partt of reality seeking reality which sounds to me like a goal, but only one fourth of a goal, and to reach there one must reach morality with the verse of atonment wich is the goal of forgiveness, so you see in Soto Zen there are more than several realities, and the Lay member is also told that in the Soto Zen Monestary there arre hundreds more of Precepts, so we have very much to attain if we are to learn to carry the message of Soto Zen as the final atainment in a worldly sence of Priest, and this is an atainment of Priesthood a goal, the ultimate goal of the novice Priest which is called usurai or (did I spell it right?) of novice priest, and, so you see, there is the ultimate goal which is the Priesthood, or one who attains the ultimate reality which is at the bottom of the ladder, or a goal in and of of itself, which is no goal, then there is the goal of work to earn one's bread to eat and survive whis is the ultimate goal in or to carry al these goals to Lay members and more to novice priests, whic is is a step down to the farthest down which is a goal, and for the Priest this all suposed to be automatic in the doing or the ultimat goal which is not a goal, and none of this is a goal or the moral goal which is the path to the ultimate goal which involves hundreds of Precepts, or steps to enlightenment which is the goaless goal, or just doing the act, or tthe metaphore or one more step toward the goaless goal which is understanding just sitting which is not a goal but is a goal, so all of this is not a goal which is the ultimate goal or no goal practiced to be goaless or just sitting, whis is not a goal which is the goal so we understand that even the Lay memember practices 19 Precepts to come to the goal of Lay member, or a first goal in the three member lader or three goals are paradoxes to the bottom which is the goaless goal. These seem like an aweful lot of goals, and I just wanted to be a Priest, but my wife who I love unconditionally who beecame the automatic goal in our culture, so perhaps I have twenty goals toward the ultimate goal which is for me, my love of my loved ones, which include wife, child, or children, mother and father, and all my relatives. These are different and so many goals for the baby who has the ultimate reality to be or ultimate love so we ask how is this is different from the Priesthood? Maybe Ultimate love and the Priesthood are the same, but everyone is expeccted to attain this in the person of tthe beloved and the belover. So the ultimate goal is unconditional love, and modern psychology takes this one step farther or Self Actualization or the act of creating which involves doing all and creating of a beautiful work of Art, or a baby. This is the ultimate, to love your son or daughter, and throught--the ultimate love we do create, or not ccreate a child for we may be the same sexuality, and this may allow one to be with one, one to create a beautiful work of art which was and is eternal as the linage of the child, or Art for Art's sake, or the child, whose ever sexuality one/ is and this may be an act of nature, or naturally, We find creatieing is the ultimate goal and this is the ultimate act of love which becomes the ultumate reality, so love is the ultimate act, or non-act, and the extreme act which is the oposite which is hate which we must work very hard to overcome which is love which involves the ultimate sacrafice or time and effort to create by forfeting one's self, so to give of one's self ultimatly is to be willing to give one's self for the beloved or ultumate sacrafice. This is the ultimate goal which must come naturally because one loves the beloved ultimately which may be a person or an act of art. This is true love, or Shikantaza, just sitting, just loving, or just being, and you must know Tai Shi for he is crying for he has two great loves, poetry of which this is a part of him, and Marjorie who is his greatest love and who embodies his pooetry. Who he finds in poetry, or lanuage the vehicle of love and willingness of/ to diying again, and again, again, again..., ultimitatly of foreverver forfeting the self, or one's life, which may not exist except in the mind of the beholder, leading to love unto forever or the person of the lover, or death or after death given for the beloved...or creation after creation, which some believe is God-like, or god, of god, or infinity, forever...or ultimate Love which I have for Marrjorie in this poetry which I have created for my beloved and she is ultimatly lovedwhich is my ultimate zazen. and I have found Worship of an art for her with Love or Godlike... in language which is an art, or poetry the ultimate expression or one paradox of love and infinity, or just being...poetry for Marjorie Jo An, and child or Laurel Ann, and in poetry the ultimate enbodiment of poetry...the ultimate paradox of creation...

Gassho deepest bows, bow forever, and forever...
Sacrificed ultimatily the self unto death and aftter...
Of Tai Shi, for Marjorie, the name of this poetry. This the very long poem dedicated to Marjorie my beloved,, and thus, ultimately I create Art, the ultimate infinity out of love and I give of myself, living unto death and beyond--sacraficed...for Marjorie and Laurel Ann two different loves from one love of my little Family of Community of loving...forever...since this child has created since age 15...will create more which will last hopefully forever thus hope in a part leading to 20 steps and this ultimate creation of art or literature one form of art of lasting merit...beloved,,,

[Hosai]

I began this thread becaus some had questions about Just Lay Members practice. I have attempted to fill in the gaps as I progressed here at Treeleaf as a practictioner of Buddhiam which has taken on the guise of Zen withe guise of Zen which involves zazen, and specificaly Soto Zen in which I have learned the practice of Shikantaza or just sitting in English....

Your love for Marjorie shines through so clearly in your words. It must be a deep and enduring connection, one that shapes not only your life but also your understanding of Zen practice. I can imagine how challenging it must feel to sense that the path to priesthood might be out of reach now, that the years have shifted your focus from that particular aspiration to something else.

I feel this too in my own practice—a sense of having moved past certain possibilities, while still being deeply committed to the path.We find ourselves deeply engaged in the life of a lay practitioner, where the richness of practice and the responsibilities of everyday life intersect. It can feel like a paradox, this desire for a more formal role that now seems distant and somewhat ridiculous, while knowing that the lay path is also a profound way to embody the teachings.In the end, maybe there’s a kind of freedom in this. The roles of layperson and priest begin to blur, revealing that the essence of practice doesn’t depend on titles or formal recognition.

The love we give and receive, the sacrifices we make, these are just as much the heart of Zen as anything that happens within monastery walls. In this light, perhaps we see that nothing has been lost—only transformed into another form of the same path, one that is uniquely ours Upsaika Taishi...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Bion]

Your love for Marjorie shines through so clearly in your words. It must be a deep and enduring connection, one that shapes not only your life but also your understanding of Zen practice. I can imagine how challenging it must feel to sense that the path to priesthood might be out of reach now, that the years have shifted your focus from that particular aspiration to something else.

I feel this too in my own practice—a sense of having moved past certain possibilities, while still being deeply committed to the path.We find ourselves deeply engaged in the life of a lay practitioner, where the richness of practice and the responsibilities of everyday life intersect. It can feel like a paradox, this desire for a more formal role that now seems distant and somewhat ridiculous, while knowing that the lay path is also a profound way to embody the teachings.In the end, maybe there’s a kind of freedom in this. The roles of layperson and priest begin to blur, revealing that the essence of practice doesn’t depend on titles or formal recognition.

The love we give and receive, the sacrifices we make, these are just as much the heart of Zen as anything that happens within monastery walls. In this light, perhaps we see that nothing has been lost—only transformed into another form of the same path, one that is uniquely ours Upsaika Taishi...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

Oh yeah, you are absolutely right. Manifesting the Buddha Dharma, fully engaging the Way is in no way limited to monks or priests or whatever we are. It takes all of us to keep the Practice going. Without lay practitioners there would've been no monastic community to maintain the Dharma. Like I said in my little talk, it took Anathapindika and his work, money and generosity for the monks to have a place of practice. Vimalakirti put all the bodhisattvas to shame, even as he lived a good, wealthy life free of Vinaya restrictions. Of course, without the monastics, lay practitioners would've probably not been able to maintain the Practice alive, while trying to live daily life. We all manifest the same Buddha Nature and all are essential ways! Living by vow is fully available to everyone.

Apologies for running a little long
Gassho
sat and lah