Non engagement in Zazen

[RobO]

Hi all,
I have a quick clarifying question.. I believe I am quite clear about what to do with thoughts when they appear during zazen. Nothing. If possible allow them to appear, and don't interfere with them. If I am fortunate enough to get the sense of that urge to engage with the thought, let it pass. If I notice I am engaged, I am no longer engaged.

Does this apply to other sense objects in the same way?

So let's say I get an itch. My awareness naturally goes to it (or maybe the sensation comes to my awareness?). My understanding is, the important point is not to direct towards, or away or actively investigate and dive into or away from. Is that correct?

So its more about not directing, and not doing? Catching that urge to engage and "putting the brakes on" letting it pass?

If awareness is going quite indepth into a sensation by itself (or it presents strongly eg, if an unknown insect lands on me for example haha), no problem if attention is "very firmly" on it, by itself. If I drive my awareness into a sensation though, no longer just sitting?

I guess I am sortof checking for a more global understanding based on all sensations, as thoughts tend to get singled out for instruction (because they are a bit peskier and grab us and we end up doing a whole lot of doing stuff without realising).

Hope this all makes sense.

Gassho
Rob
Sat/lah

[Bion]

Hi, Rob. What a great question. Itches are probably the most common thing and that's the one example I most often use when talking about what happens during zazen. Probably cause it's something that I've intimately experienced quite often. Let me start off with the disclaimer that whatever I say comes as my personal experience and opinions, and it by no means a reflection of any teaching. I am just a silly novice hoping to learn more.

My understanding of zazen is that it is open and all inclusive. The senses are all in full function, and they all work together, unobstructed, as one. So, when an itch arises, it is a mere product of conditions, , the same as pain, discomfort, pleasure, a cough or thoughts. My approach in that case is the same as with just thinking. Itches appear out of the blue and can be really overpowering, but so can pain or persistent thoughts. I usually hold back from reacting instantaneously or from shifting all of my attention on what is bothering me. I have come to learn in time that I can simply not engage and remain in immovable sitting. Usually, the itch goes away, or the pain subsides a bit, or I just sit through them. Sometimes, there is an actual need to move, adjust, scratch or do whatever, and it is good to recognize that too. I've learned fantastic lessons from holding back like that, lessons about my own reactivity, endurance, determination, weaknesses etc, and I want to say it's helped me understand my behaviour and have more self-control in day to day life, as I can vividly recall how during zazen I was more than once able to simply allow things to be.
I don't know if this is an answer that is in any way what you were expecting to read, but it's what I can offer.
Sorry for running long.

Gassho
sat and lah

[Jundo]

So let's say I get an itch. My awareness naturally goes to it (or maybe the sensation comes to my awareness?). My understanding is, the important point is not to direct towards, or away or actively investigate and dive into or away from. Is that correct?

My response is simple.

Don't be tangled in the itch.

But if scratching just scratch, don't be tangled in scratching.

If not scratching, just don't scatch. Don't be tangled in not scratching.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Jundo]

Maybe helpful is this other reflection on things like 'Gaman' (the Japanese cultural value of 'sticking it out, putting up with'), and mosquitos, when to scratch or not scratch ...
.

'Fixceptance' and Shikantaza (LINK)
.

Sometimes folks ask about moving and fixing during Zazen, when their legs fall asleep, or a mosquito tickles. How much should they tolerate, or try to ignore, and when is it okay to take action? My response to this actually goes far beyond just the times of sitting, and offers a powerful approach to living all of life, with all its difficulties, and maybe even to dealing with this world's biggest problems.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Tom A.]

Thank you for asking this, Rob, it was useful and clarifying. It resonated so much that I honestly think (and I could be wrong) I’m just a little behind you in understanding this stuff.

Gassho,
Tom

SatLah

[RobO]

Bion thank you very much, and for sharing those lessons you have learned, as, I realise from reading them I have also found something similar (even actually just sitting still being so hard at the start sortof takes care of itself now!). And now I think of it.. when it's appropriate to leave things alone in life I am better able to.

Jundo thank you. I sortof take from that almost.. scratching or sitting still, the ability to be anywhere other than doing that is imaginary, so be where you are. (I will relisten to your talk!). It's a strange one I haven't quite got my head around hah! I will let what you said there sink in, but wanted to reply to thank you.

A little more context, though your response seem to apply there as well. I practice other meditations whereby there is a marked difference in.. technique. While out on walks for example I do a noting practice (there I am directing attention as I note, watching the sensations through from start to finish if possible). I don't direct in this way during shikantaza, or try not to.. but it's that investigative quality in shikantaza that is absent? (Almost things come to you rather than you go to them).

So based on your reply Jundo, If I hear a bird outside, if my mind zooms in on it, then be zoomed in on it. If my mind gently observes it, then gently observe it. The struggle to do something with it other than what is there just takes me away from what is there.

Ran long, apologies, and I will let your answers sink in.

Tom A. Glad it was helpful.

Gassho,
Rob

Sat/lah

[Bion]

Bion
So based on your reply Jundo, If I hear a bird outside, if my mind zooms in on it, then be zoomed in on it. If my mind gently observes it, then gently observe it. The struggle to do something with it other than what is there just takes me away from what is there.

I'm gonna go on a limb here, and I might be entirely wrong, but, I'd say observing one thing, a noise, a sight, a thought, causes one to be lost in that thought, absorbed in i and is an active process where one shifts attention to that particular object... That's basically listening to a bird while sitting, not sitting shikantaza. It might be totally fine with other meditation techniques, I am sure of that. I think the concept of letting go, not doing something is harder to put into words in these cases, but there is a difference between simply returning to just sitting, with open spacious awareness and engaging in thinking about how we should not be thinking, or listening, or watching. I am probably also failing at expressing it. My apologies for that.

Gassho
sat and lah

[RobO]

Bion yes, I think that makes sense, especially with being "absorbed". The thoughts that grab seem very fast immediate difficult to spot "pull" and we get sucked into. We know we are absorbed as 5 minutes later... with a sound it's more subtle, but a version of the same thing? It's very tricky!

It's almost like resisting temptations "How do I solve this life problem" (big temptation) vs "nice bird sound" (smaller, transient temptation). Allowing the thought or sound to be there without getting caught up? A bit like being a fish, noticing lots of hooks with juicy worms from various senses and practicing allowing them and not biting?

Is that closer to the right attitude?

Gassho, Rob
Sat/lah

[Bion]

Bion yes, I think that makes sense, especially with being "absorbed". The thoughts that grab seem very fast immediate difficult to spot "pull" and we get sucked into. We know we are absorbed as 5 minutes later... with a sound it's more subtle, but a version of the same thing? It's very tricky!

It's almost like resisting temptations "How do I solve this life problem" (big temptation) vs "nice bird sound" (smaller, transient temptation). Allowing the thought or sound to be there without getting caught up? A bit like being a fish, noticing lots of hooks with juicy worms from various senses and practicing allowing them and not biting?

Is that closer to the right attitude?

Gassho, Rob
Sat/lah

I think Jundo should make the call whether that's closer to the right attitude or not, and maybe correct both of us! To me, when sitting, it is literally JUST sitting. It does not include or require judgments and categories or anything. Growling stomach is chirping bird, is creaking gate, is heartbeat in ears, is mind moving, is upright sitting, is tingling in legs etc Not pretty, not annoying, not out there, not in here, not mine not not mine... When during zazen "this or that" become "something", I just go back to back straight, breath gentle, eyes open and horizontal, nose vertical...

Gassho
sat and lah

[Houzan]

BionA bit like being a fish, noticing lots of hooks with juicy worms from various senses and practicing allowing them and not biting?

Is that closer to the right attitude?

Maybe more like being a fish that sees that he is no fish, doesn’t need to swim anywhere, and has nothing to achieve. So he doesn’t try to notice anything. He doesn’t try to not notice anything. He doesn’t try to eat the juicy worms, neither does he try to not eat the worms. He just floats. But as he just floats he doesn’t swim, doesn’t observe, and doesn’t eat. But should he swim, observe or eat, then there is no need to not do this, neither a need to do this, so he just returns to floating.

Maybe something like that? The point being: there is a complete acceptance of EVERYTHING and a complete letting go of EVERYTHING.

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah

[Jundo]

investigative quality in shikantaza that is absent?

I might say that the other practice are missing something, and something is absent, by their instructions to do, find, note, observe, investigate. Stop to analyze and note and find, and Just Sit with nothing lacking, nothing to do, nothing in need of doing, nothing to solve, nothing to get caught. This is how a Buddha sits. Bion says it nicely, if a bit detailed. My way is simpler:

Jesus Buddha, why don't people know how to stop and put it all down for a time?

Gassho, J
stlah

[RobO]

Thank you all.

I am still a little unclear, but I think in practical terms the issue doesn't actually come up that often as there is very rarely an automatic focusing of much depth. I sense my question is becoming a touch annoying, so I won't continue.. but it seems not directing attention and accepting everything is close enough to the mark, for now. Perhaps it will sort itself out in time!

Also my apologies if I made a faux pas bringing up another practice, it wasn't to suggest something is lacking in zazen, only to clarify what I understand to be one of the important parts of zazen (by contrast if you will). I also don't contemplate this during zazen (or note).

Thank you all again for your comments.

Gassho, Rob
Sat/lah

[Bion]

Thank you all.

I am still a little unclear, but I think in practical terms the issue doesn't actually come up that often as there is very rarely an automatic focusing of much depth. I sense my question is becoming a touch annoying, so I won't continue.. but it seems not directing attention and accepting everything is close enough to the mark, for now. Perhaps it will sort itself out in time!

Also my apologies if I made a faux pas bringing up another practice, it wasn't to suggest something is lacking in zazen, only to clarify what I understand to be one of the important parts of zazen (by contrast if you will). I also don't contemplate this during zazen (or note).

Thank you all again for your comments.

Gassho, Rob
Sat/lah

Definitely not annoying! Questions are normal for all of us. It’s part of why we have a forum. Also, no faux-pas! There are other practices out there, so no need to just act like there aren’t. Don’t worry, my friend, it was a great discussion.

Gassho
sat and lah

[Houzan]

It’s a great question and I certainly am not sure I understand this “correctly”. It seems to me, risking being wrong though it has been helpful, that the trick is to give up trying to do sitting in a correct way. The very need or want to do sitting “correctly” is what makes sitting “incorrect”.

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah

[Jundo]

Also my apologies if I made a faux pas bringing up another practice, it wasn't to suggest something is lacking in zazen, only to clarify what I understand to be one of the important parts of zazen (by contrast if you will). I also don't contemplate this during zazen (or note).

Oh, not annoying and no faux-pas.

The point is that, when sitting (Shikantaza) just thoroughly sit Shikantaza. There is nothing lacking, nothing to reach for, nothing to analyze. Learning this is powerful medicine.

At other time, one can do what one wishes, and those might be good things too.

But the less of Shikantaza is also unique, and we human beings need to be a bit more versed in putting down the constant noting, investigating, analyzing sometimes. Learning "nothing to do" is are hard lesson to get in peoples' skulls who are so used to running toward, running from, judging, doing, getting, attaining, planning, pondering etc. etc. all day.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah