Planning Zazen during Zazen

[Anthony]

Hi folks, sorry for running a bit long with this one.

It is no secret that I am a bit inconsistent with my zazen. It is very difficult for me to discipline myself into sitting every day, and I often skip days. I'd like to establish a sitting routine but my daily schedule is sometimes fluid and I tend to use that as an excuse not to establish such a routine. This is something I need to work on.

Unfortunately, I have realized that every time I *do* sit, my mind inevitably starts to plan my next sits.

"If I wake up every Sunday early enough, I can do the Treeleaf weekly/monthly zazen without bothering my wife...What time should I wake up? Will I be able to actually commit to waking up that early? Is that sustainable?"

"Maybe I can do my zazen before work every day...is there any way I can start joining one of the daily sitting groups? Wow, I'm so bad at sitting consistently, I need to do this more."

etc. etc.

These are the kinds of thoughts that tend to rush around in my head while I sit. This sort of stressful planning and self-judgment seems like it goes against the spirit of zazen and maybe is contributing to my lack of consistency. Has anyone else experienced this? Any tips for getting past this kind of self-talk or even just forcing oneself to establish a routine?

I feel like if I was disciplined enough to be able to establish a rigorous routine, these kinds of thoughts would not even occur.

Gassho,
Satlah, Anthony

[Seiko]

Hi Anthony,
I am a just priest in training, so please take a few grains of salt with anything I say, I am no teacher.

I find routine feels healthy. Getting up ay the same time each day, bathroom, zazen, breakfast, etc. Going to bed at the same time, mostly. Mentally and physically, choosing routine enables me to function better.

Or is it just me?

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Bion]

Hi, Anthony!
Oh, I don´t think being disciplined would make the thoughts go away or that if the thoughts were gone you'd be more disciplined. If it´s not this, it'll be what's for dinner, or what you have to do at work or some other thing that´s occupying your mind. I wouldn´t say the kinds of thoughts arising go against the spirit of zazen, as you put it. Good or bad thoughts are irrelevant for sitting. However, clearly, it is something that concerns you, so you probably want to address it. I'd personally go with the simplest approach, which is to follow the guidance we receive from all our teachers, from Jundo all the way back to Dogen Zenji and his teachers before him: return to just sitting once we catch ourselves spiralling into internal discourse. The moment we realize ¨hey, I am thinking about something¨ is precisely when we´ve stopped thinking about that and have returned to being present, so we simply continue just sitting, eyes open, breath gently entering and exiting the body, body still and relaxed (if health allows for a still and relaxed body!!!), not grabbing those thoughts, but opening the hand and letting them fall as they may. Not engaging with the thoughts, not continuing the discourse is the important part, rather than attempting to stop them or control them.

In Zazen Yojinki, which we´re studying during the monthly Zazenkai, master Keizan addresses various common issues that arise during zazen One of them being a wandering mind. He says: "If the mind wanders, place attention at the tip of the nose and tanden (the abdomen)." He also suggests to " place attention above the hairline or between your eyebrows", which is to say, divert the attention from the nagging discourse for a moment, enough for us to allow the thoughts to float away, if possible, and continue sitting. Jundo I think would say, also to not get caught up in trying to "fix" the sitting, to not try anything special, to pay no never mind to the internal voice. Sometimes zazen is preoccupied and sometimes it is not. We just continue sitting. I believe accepting zazen for everything it is and can be, can keep it a new and pleasant experience, rather than something that causes us to be concerned or stressed out when we think of it.

I hope this helps a bit. Please keep in mind I am simple student, a novice, so you should take what I say with some salt, and mostly as my own understanding of things. Also, sorry for running so long, everyone

Gassho
Sat and lah

[Jundo]

That is like thinking about dinner while eating lunch.

One powerful aspect of Shikantaza is it is the very dropping of our "little self's" need to plan, judge, schedule, seek improvements. So, if you are planning, judging, thinking about time and improvement ... that is just not Just Sitting.

Plan and consider your life and schedule AFTER Zazen, but during Zazen put down all plans but to sit right here, right now. The only judgement is that this sitting, here and now, is whole and complete. There is no other time, no before or after. There is nothing to add, nothing to take away. Have faith and trust that Zazen is so.

If you cannot do those things then, even if you sit for hours and hours, it is not Shikantaza.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Anthony]

Thanks all, for your responses! Sorry for running long as I try to respond to others' points.

I find routine feels healthy. Getting up ay the same time each day, bathroom, zazen, breakfast, etc. Going to bed at the same time, mostly. Mentally and physically, choosing routine enables me to function better.

I completely agree with this Seiko. Unfortunately, throughout my life I have never been one for routines. It's always been really difficult for me to intentionally establish a routine. I am hoping to work on this because I do believe routines can be a powerful and positive force!

Hi, Anthony!
Oh, I don´t think being disciplined would make the thoughts go away or that if the thoughts were gone you'd be more disciplined. If it´s not this, it'll be what's for dinner, or what you have to do at work or some other thing that´s occupying your mind. I wouldn´t say the kinds of thoughts arising go against the spirit of zazen, as you put it. Good or bad thoughts are irrelevant for sitting. However, clearly, it is something that concerns you, so you probably want to address it. I'd personally go with the simplest approach, which is to follow the guidance we receive from all our teachers, from Jundo all the way back to Dogen Zenji and his teachers before him: return to just sitting once we catch ourselves spiralling into internal discourse. The moment we realize ¨hey, I am thinking about something¨ is precisely when we´ve stopped thinking about that and have returned to being present, so we simply continue just sitting, eyes open, breath gently entering and exiting the body, body still and relaxed (if health allows for a still and relaxed body!!!), not grabbing those thoughts, but opening the hand and letting them fall as they may. Not engaging with the thoughts, not continuing the discourse is the important part, rather than attempting to stop them or control them.

In Zazen Yojinki, which we´re studying during the monthly Zazenkai, master Keizan addresses various common issues that arise during zazen One of them being a wandering mind. He says: "If the mind wanders, place attention at the tip of the nose and tanden (the abdomen)." He also suggests to " place attention above the hairline or between your eyebrows", which is to say, divert the attention from the nagging discourse for a moment, enough for us to allow the thoughts to float away, if possible, and continue sitting. Jundo I think would say, also to not get caught up in trying to "fix" the sitting, to not try anything special, to pay no never mind to the internal voice. Sometimes zazen is preoccupied and sometimes it is not. We just continue sitting. I believe accepting zazen for everything it is and can be, can keep it a new and pleasant experience, rather than something that causes us to be concerned or stressed out when we think of it.

The advice here was very helpful! The thoughts definitely still come, but Master Keizan's tips here helped me "open the hand of thought" and get back to just sitting in today's sit.

That is like thinking about dinner while eating lunch.

Definitely! Unfortunately, I am the kind of person who does think about dinner while eating lunch!

One powerful aspect of Shikantaza is it is the very dropping of our "little self's" need to plan, judge, schedule, seek improvements. So, if you are planning, judging, thinking about time and improvement ... that is just not Just Sitting.

Plan and consider your life and schedule AFTER Zazen, but during Zazen put down all plans but to sit right here, right now. The only judgement is that this sitting, here and now, is whole and complete. There is no other time, no before or after. There is nothing to add, nothing to take away. Have faith and trust that Zazen is so.

If you cannot do those things then, even if you sit for hours and hours, it is not Shikantaza.

This is true. The problem is when the thoughts of planning and judging arise outside of my control. Let's say these thoughts do arise and I spiral with them for a bit before noticing them and "opening the hand of thought" to release them. Is it Shikantaza again after I release them?

Gassho,
satlah, Anthony

[Jundo]

Is it Shikantaza again after I release them?

Oh yes, and I would say that the "releasing" is even one part of the "non-process."

Even if thoughts come of planning and such, just do not grab the thoughts, do not get on board and start to "spiral." But if finding oneself spiraling, open the hand of thought and let them drift away. Or find the light of clarity, the "nothing to place" face of the universe, and allow it to shine thought the thoughts of planning.

Also, I am also not one to sit at a regular time, because my days change so much. I do sit for Zazenkai, and I do sit between getting my daughter off to school and before breakfast ... but I cannot say that it is always the exact same time and same length. What is important is that, while sitting, each moment is complete, no before or after, no measure of time ... this moment, this moment and this. And, of course, all during the day, I undertake MANY "Insta-Zazen" ... sitting, walking, standing ...

- Zazen for Beginners (13) - Anywhere, Anytime INSTA-ZAZEN!© (LINK)

(the © is a joke )

Gassho, J

stlah

[Anthony]

Also, I am also not one to sit at a regular time, because my days change so much. I do sit for Zazenkai, and I do sit between getting my daughter off to school and before breakfast ... but I cannot say that it is always the exact same time and same length. What is important is that, while sitting, each moment is complete, no before or after, no measure of time ... this moment, this moment and this. And, of course, all during the day, I undertake MANY "Insta-Zazen" ... sitting, walking, standing ...

- Zazen for Beginners (13) - Anywhere, Anytime INSTA-ZAZEN!© (LINK)

(the © is a joke )

Thanks Jundo. Knowing that I'm not the only one without a regular time actually does a lot to make me feel better about the whole thing.

Also, did some Jundo-Patented© insta-zazen today at the mechanic waiting for my oil change (if only for just a few seconds).

Gassho,
satlah
Anthony

[Jundo]

Thanks Jundo. Knowing that I'm not the only one without a regular time actually does a lot to make me feel better about the whole thing.

Also, did some Jundo-Patented© insta-zazen today at the mechanic waiting for my oil change (if only for just a few seconds).

Gassho,
satlah
Anthony

Changing your inner oil. Yet, the Buddha's oil never needs changing.

Gassho, J

stlah