SPLIT TOPIC: 'Not Two' Postures

[Jundo]

JUNDO NOTE: I SPLIT OFF THIS THREAD ON POSTURE FROM THE "BUDDHA & CHRIST" THREAD ...

By the way (yes, my perogative to jump in ), in Suzuki's "Zen Mind Beginner's Mind" on Posture, I don't see anything he is teaching that is but "not-2" ...

Now I would like to talk about our zazen posture. When you sit in the full lotus position, your left foot is on your right thigh, and your right foot is on your left thigh. When we cross our legs like this, even though we have a right leg and a left leg, they have become one. The position expresses the oneness of duality: not two, and not one. This is the most important teaching: not two, and not one. Our body and mind are not two and not one. If you think your body and mind are two, that is wrong; if you think that they are one, that is also wrong. Our body and mind are both two and one. We usually think that if something is not one, it is more than one; if it is not singular, it is plural. But in actual experience, our life is not only plural, but also singular. Each one of us is both dependent and independent. After some years we will die. If we just think that it is the end of our life, this will be the wrong understanding. But, on the other hand, if we think that we do not die, this is also wrong. We die, and we do not die. This is the right understanding. Some people may say that our mind or soul exists forever, and it is only our physical body which dies. But this is not exactly right, because both mind and body have their end. But at the same time it is also true that they exist eternally. And even though we say mind and body, they are actually two sides of one coin. This is the right understanding. So when we take this posture it symbolizes this truth.


By the way ... Jesus and Buddha are "not two".

Gassho, J

[Omoi Otoshi]

Pontus.......... if or when you do decide to re-read ZMBM, let me know your take on page 7 on Posture, whether there is some disagreement with Jundos take on not-2. Suzuki seems to see it from a different perspective. Jundo, don't way-in till Pontus posts his own take.

Hi Galen,

Suzuki's, Jundo's and Taigu's pointing is very similar and pointing to the same moon. If you ask me, Jundo's take might even be closer to Suzuki than even Nishijima or Sawaki in this regard (but I could be wrong of course). I see no real difference in perspective. Do you think of something in particular?

Posture is a personal thing. I prefer the lotus position for different reasons, but there are several classic positions to choose from, so if you can't sit lotus, no big deal. When I started sitting, knowing that I was sitting in the exact same position as Gautama and all the ancestors gave me the reassurance I needed, a kinship or connection, helped me find the Buddha mind. It's also a very practical position in that it's very stable. I find it easier to trust my body and let go in this position than in any other. And for me, it's neither too comfortable, nor too painful.

Then there is the symbolism, or the tantric dimension of posture, that is different to every practitioner I suppose. I like Suzuki's take regarding the legs. You can also find meaning in the upright spine, the position of the arms, the shape of the mudra, the whole body as one.

I'm not sure any of this is helpful at all...

Gassho,
Pontus

[galen]

Hi Galen,

Suzuki's, Jundo's and Taigu's pointing is very similar and pointing to the same moon. If you ask me, Jundo's take might even be closer to Suzuki than even Nishijima or Sawaki in this regard (but I could be wrong of course). I see no real difference in perspective. Do you think of something in particular?

Posture is a personal thing. I prefer the lotus position for different reasons, but there are several classic positions to choose from, so if you can't sit lotus, no big deal. When I started sitting, knowing that I was sitting in the exact same position as Gautama and all the ancestors gave me the reassurance I needed, a kinship or connection, helped me find the Buddha mind. It's also a very practical position in that it's very stable. I find it easier to trust my body and let go in this position than in any other. And for me, it's neither too comfortable, nor too painful.

Then there is the symbolism, or the tantric dimension of posture, that is different to every practitioner I suppose. I like Suzuki's take regarding the legs. You can also find meaning in the upright spine, the position of the arms, the shape of the mudra, the whole body as one.

I'm not sure any of this is helpful at all...

Gassho,
Pontus

Thank you, Pontus.

[Jundo]

On the question of Posture, and the emphasis of many Japanese Roshi on holding a "proper" posture ... I would like to repost the below. Of course, the real person to speak about this is Taigu, with his wonderful, fluid view of sitting found in our "Beginner's" series of talks ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?63-A-SERIES-OF-TALKS-FOR-NEW-FOLKS

Another book with a like approach, recommended, is The Posture of Mediation by Will Johnson (but please also read review and some cautions here):

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION

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Japanese culture can be a bit rigid and incessant on the one "right" way to do any action, be it to pour a cup of tea (this is a cultural aspect of the traditional arts) or crossing the street, and about pushing oneself to conform to that 'One Way or the Highway' ... called a 'Kata' (if anyone has martial arts experience). Such teachers may tend to emphasize that the one and only way to sit Zazen is in the "Lotus Position". Here is a little description of "Kata" (I cannot verify the source of the following, but I can verify the conclusion from 20 years living in Japan):

.... an immovable set of rules that govern what is and what is not accepted as acceptable behavior or thinking in japan ... In reality, there are many “Ways” to do most things in Japan, although each group will have a tendency to claim that its pattern is “the Way.” As a medical researcher who has participated in procedures and experiments at many dozens of Japanese hospitals, universities and the like, I know that no two groups ever will follow exactly the same patterns. Each, however, will have a tendency to explain that its way is “the Way,” usually because the most senior person in the group will have come to that conclusion after having learned it to be the thinking of some other person ... that the senior person respects. (Also, one must be very careful in suggesting that a competing group might have a better way which contradicts the opinion of a senior member of group). Every group in every culture does this, but what is unusual in Japan is the inflexible, almost mechanical way the system operates. The emphasis on proper “Kata” (Boye de Menthe has a wonderful, hard to find little book on this) in Japanese society is reminiscent of any conservative, tradition based culture, though unique in the way is has developed to permit a functioning, industrial society.

On the other hand, as with Oryoki eating (a wonderful example of "Kata"), there is a beauty in the fixed form that one literally can lose ones' 'self' in. So, "Kata" is also a very very good thing, don't misunderstand me on that point. Conforming to "classic" form has very many beneficial aspects. I am a big big fan of Oryoki and other Kata practices, and I teach them. In fact, Dogen seems to have only talked about the Lotus Position (no seiza benches for him in the 13th century), and my own teacher, Nishijima says that folks should sit in the Lotus Position (and he is not too open to alternatives ... he rightly says that some folks reject the Lotus position and such before really giving it a try). Uchiyama Roshi has said some things in his book that place him more or less in that category.

But when this is carried too far, the "Lotus Position" itself can come to be thought of as having some "magic power", or fetishized as working some miraculous psycho-physiological effect on the body to lead to "Satori". But that is not the meaning, I believe, of "sitting in the Lotus Position is enlightenment itself".

It is, rather, "sitting in the Lotus Position as a 'pure' act, the one and only act in the universe at that moment'. The Lotus Position itself is not the point. It is "doing one pure act in one moment" with all body-mind. (Although, truly, the Lotus Position does have many advantages in allowing us to forget the body, and balance the body, leading to balance in mind ... chair sitting, for example, is just not as good in that way)

Well, in the fat thighed, bad back West, many folks just cannot manage the Lotus Position. So, the emphasis has changed slightly: As opposed to "sitting in the Lotus Position as a 'pure' act, the one and only act in the universe at that moment' ... it has changed to 'sitting as a pure act, the one and only act in the universe at that moment'. In other words, "sitting in a chair is enlightenment itself' is true too if approached with that attitude. Do "chair sitting" as a Kata!

By the way, while Dogen and others emphasized that sitting Zazen is "enlightenment itself", they also taught that everything is "Zazen" if approached that way. Dogen sometimes said that Zazen is only sitting (not walking, running, standing or lying down), but he also said that Zazen is walking, running, standing or lying down (that guy knew how to talk out of both sides of his mouth!) So, I teach that perspective too here at Treeleaf.

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Some Japanese teachers and lineages can be extremely focused on the sitting posture itself, as a fetish ... as if the posture of the Lotus itself has some mystical power. (Something similar can be seen in many other Japanese arts, from the martial arts to baseball, where there is great emphasis on a "one size fits all" approach to throwing the ball). Shikantaza has a wider meaning than that, that sweeps in all of Reality. It is Shikantaza, even if one is sitting in a chair or standing on a train.(I mean, Lotus is a wonderful posture conducive to balance and Zazen ... but not alone the central point of Zazen.

The basic principle is that balance of body is hand-in-glove with balance of mind, one nurturing the other, truly just body-mind. For millenia, the Full Lotus, and to a lessor extent, the Half Lotus have been considered positions of great poise and balance. The Burmese position is also very balanced. The lifting of the rump, straightening of the back with slight curvature of the lower back, the stability of the legs with good circulation, the comfortable head position ... all lend themselves to our forgetting about the body during Zazen. Once mastered, they are intended as incredibly comfortable and stable positions ... not torture

My teacher, Nishijima, is against Seiza and, even more so, chairs. They do not provide such balance in his view, and furthermore, were not the tradition in the Zen schools. Now, the official "Soto" school line (for Westerners, at least) is that chairs, Seiza and Burmese are acceptable ... if not ideal.

Nishijima makes the valid point that many Westerners give up on the Lotus postures for lack of trying, lack of giving it time and stretching. He is right. He may be a little stubborn in not yielding on this issue to people's needs who have legitimate physical issues, and I sometimes think so (this is a very Japanese attitude). But most westerners give up much too easily.

So, you should try many ways and make up your own mind. However, if you are physically capable of Lotus or Half Lotus (or Burmese), that is the best I think.

The philosophy around Treeleaf Sangha about sitting is that everyone should try out for themselves, and adjust, the fine points of sitting Lotus (Full and Half) and Burmese. Seiza and chair sitting, is tolerated as maybe necessary in some cases, if there is a true and uncorrectable physical need.

So, please tinker away with the Full/Half Lotus and Burmese in minor ways. You will know when you are balanced because, quite simply, you will feel balanced, and generally comfortable in sitting for long stretches day after day. The proof is in the pudding.

Instead of worshiping the Lotus Posture, I believe that the position is best which lets us forget about the position (and the rest of the body) during sitting. If one sits as if there was nothing to add or take away from the sit, nothing lacking, no other place to go, as the fulfillment of all time and space in that moment ... then such is Shikantaza even if one is "sitting" while reclining, standing on one's head or leaping through the air.

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By the way, when I have sat in China, Thailand, Laos and Tibet, I have found the meditators generally much less rigid on posture compared to the Japanese. A cultural difference. Here, for example, are some shots taken at a Sesshin I attended at a the "6th Ancestor Monastery" in China last year, and you can see how there is more a hodge-podge of sitting styles ... Have a look here from the 1:45 mark ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE6lj...ayer_embedded#!

(also, can you play "let's find jundo" at the 1:01 mark? Here's a clue: I was sticking to the inside, slow lane during their fast paced Kinhin. If you want the full movie version ... http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ll=1#post68402)

Gassho, J

[Emmet]

Monday night I sat through the first round of zazen in comfort. Walked kinhin, and sat the second round of zazen, again in comfort. Arose for kinhin, and my right leg wouldn't fully extend, and my right knee was in eye-popping, excruciating pain. Lightly flexed it a couple of times, and was able to hobble out to my truck and get home to my recliner, where I've spent the majority of this week. This is the third time this is happened sitting (about the same number of times it's happened sleeping; awaking unable to walk); it appears that my time sitting on a zafu is at an end. Set up chairs at home and at the zendo yesterday; it feels quite awkward, it's like trying to learn to sit all over again. I can't properly flex the right leg yet, and no matter how I adjust my posture, I can't seem to relieve the pressure on all of those herniated discs in my lower back. Then there's the constant daily background noise of the arthritis, perhaps a bit worse with the rain this week; and the suspicion of the light twinges of pain I'm starting to feel in my left knee as well. Another awkward feeling was the novel experience of trying to explain to someone the proper way to sit on a cushion when I was unable to demonstrate myself. I'm now high up in a chair with the clappers and inkin bell almost out of reach on the floor. I've always kept time with a little digital countdown timer on the floor in front of me; now where do I put it? How to sound the keisu bells Sunday? Temae?
Meanwhile, my work (remodeling; trying to get two houses ready for rent) is falling further and further behind, there's precious little income coming in, and I'm increasingly beginning to doubt my ability physically complete some of these projects at all.
I'm sure some of my resistance is due to a prideful attachment to sitting on a cushion, but zazen in a chair does not seem to be working for me this week at all.

[Jinyo]

Piobair I recall your posting when you hurt your knee before.

I think it must be hard if you've been used to sitting Zazen in traditional way and have a responsibility for guiding others.

But if posture was at the heart of Zazen I should not be here - I can not even chair sit Zazen - have to semi - recline. Now sitting is no doubt better - much more liable to snooze reclining - not such a sense of inner balance within physical body, etc - but maybe it's also a positive benefit not to be too attached to be able to sit Zazen one particular way?

Anyway - these are just the thoughts of a novice.

I hope things improve for you soon on all fronts.

Gassho

Willow

[Rich]

Monday night I sat through the first round of zazen in comfort. Walked kinhin, and sat the second round of zazen, again in comfort. Arose for kinhin, and my right leg wouldn't fully extend, and my right knee was in eye-popping, excruciating pain. Lightly flexed it a couple of times, and was able to hobble out to my truck and get home to my recliner, where I've spent the majority of this week. This is the third time this is happened sitting (about the same number of times it's happened sleeping; awaking unable to walk); it appears that my time sitting on a zafu is at an end. Set up chairs at home and at the zendo yesterday; it feels quite awkward, it's like trying to learn to sit all over again. I can't properly flex the right leg yet, and no matter how I adjust my posture, I can't seem to relieve the pressure on all of those herniated discs in my lower back. Then there's the constant daily background noise of the arthritis, perhaps a bit worse with the rain this week; and the suspicion of the light twinges of pain I'm starting to feel in my left knee as well. Another awkward feeling was the novel experience of trying to explain to someone the proper way to sit on a cushion when I was unable to demonstrate myself. I'm now high up in a chair with the clappers and inkin bell almost out of reach on the floor. I've always kept time with a little digital countdown timer on the floor in front of me; now where do I put it? How to sound the keisu bells Sunday? Temae?
Meanwhile, my work (remodeling; trying to get two houses ready for rent) is falling further and further behind, there's precious little income coming in, and I'm increasingly beginning to doubt my ability physically complete some of these projects at all.
I'm sure some of my resistance is due to a prideful attachment to sitting on a cushion, but zazen in a chair does not seem to be working for me this week at all.

Your condition sounds very familiar to me. The knee locking up, the pain, the sitting in a chair for a long long time. I am now mostly pain free and my knee locks a little occasionally but I sit very comfortably in Burmese style. It was a long healing process but this is what helped me a lot www.neptunebiotech.com/Krill-Oil Give it 6-8 weeks. Hope it helps you as much as it did me.