SPLIT TOPIC: Or I'll Eat My Zafu!

[Jundo]

SPLIT TOPIC FROM THE FIRE THREAD:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10182-The-fire

PS - Chet, almost every Zen Master of old, from Bodhidharma to Huineng to Dogen to Honzhi to Hakuin to everyone in between spoke of "True Self/small self, True Face, Dharmakhaya, Relative/Absolute, Mu, Emptiness, Shobogenzo, Big 'B' Buddha, Mirror Mind, Capital "M" Mind etc. etc." ... although each as "fingers pointing to the moon" (the "moon", by the way, yet another metaphorical finger pointing at the moon of Enlightenment"). This has to be unpierced, realized (made real in living) through sitting and all Practice.

However, though "fingers pointing at the moon", that does not take away that the central point of their teachings of Zen Practice was not ... to a man ... anything but the need to realize (grock and bring to life) and and break free of the self/other, the Relative/Absolute. Sorry, find me someone through the centuries who taught something else in the classic literature. I will eat my Zafu on toast. Even Dogen was about that through his jazzed up, vibrant vision of how the relative and absolute interpenetrate and totally exert as each other. No exceptions, and the only thing the Soto and Rinzai folks (and other Mahayana Buddhists) really disagree on is the specific methods to do so.

I would actually like to try to test this bold assertion by me. I'd like to ask two or three of our members (first come first served) to each name any old Zen Ancestor from China or Korea or Japan, Soto or Rinzai, and a totally random book page number. No preparations for this, neither of us check in advance. I will than go to a collection of their writings (not a book about them, but first hand writings) and see whether on that page or somewhere very close by (in case that page is the footnotes or something) they are talking about relative/absolute and getting to "True Self" (not just our small, ignorant little self) or one of its poetic expressions above.

If not, I am prepared to eat my Zafu stuffing.

[RichardH]

Sorry.. couldn't resist.

Gassho.

[Jundo]

Is Homer Simpson Roshi your suggested venerable old Zen Ancestor?



That may be, but an Enso is a donut ...

[disastermouse]

Are you saying there is a 'True Self'?

[Jundo]

Are you saying there is a 'True Self'?

Yes. As much as there is a Homer Simpson.

Gassho, J

[adrianbkelly]

homer-buddha-post.jpg

[Nengyo]

Ok, I don't know if this will work or not, because it is from a collection or writings. I used the book "zen flesh zen bones; a collection of zen and pre-zen writings" I turned to page 121 randomly. It is case 5. Kyogen Mounts the tree.

If that doesn't count, I have "zen mind, beginner's mind" and I turned to page 42.

If that doesn't work then I'm pretty much out of books by zen masters and we will have to resort to using science textbooks and military history books.

[disastermouse]

Yes. As much as there is a Homer Simpson.

Gassho, J

Chet

[Jundo]

I just posted this on the "fire" thread ... but it belongs here too. Why I am doing this?

I wrote to Willow, who is dealing with a sick mother know ... and is a little distracted from a seeming "philosophical discussion"

----------------------------

Hi Willow,

I just want to drop in that these issues may seem like a "philosophical discussion", but truly they go to the heart of Zen and all Mahayana Buddhism. All the Koans, the Zazen, the Mahayana Sutras, the writings by the great Teachers ... truly all arise from and center on this. Sometimes this fact may be lost on folks who believe that "Zen" is beyond and rejects all "ideas, views and doctrines" ... and thus has not ideas, views and doctrines. But such is not the case.

Rather, when folks of old said that "Zen" is beyond all "ideas, views and doctrines" they meant (itself a kind of doctrine) that the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha (which we are discussing) is beyond and holds undividedly all divisions, all "ideas, views and doctrines". So, the best way to approach and realize the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha is thus to sit in Zazen (Shikantaza, work with Koans and the like) dropping all ideas, views and doctrines. Thereby our little self, with all its little ideas and views ... comes to embody that which is beyond (yet spawns) all divisions, ideas and views.

Why is that important? Why did perhaps every single Zen teacher of old that I know spend so much time and effort to Teach just this? Is it just philosophy and a waste of time compared to your now dealing with your old mother, who is very sick, or other matters in life?

I would answer by saying that this Teaching is,　in fact, one of the greatest gifts to someone who is dealing with sickness, old age, life and death and all human problems. It is not merely a "philosophical debate" because, when one has truly unpierced this Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha that all the old teachers spoke about, one learns that sickness, old age, life and death, the broken heart and struggle you are dealing with ... is not just that. Further, it is not merely to be understood on an intellectual level, but rather right in our bones through this Zen Practice.

I hope that is clear. Freedom, Wisdom, Compassion arise here ... when we can live this "No Doctrine Doctrine".

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Ok, I don't know if this will work or not, because it is from a collection or writings. I used the book "zen flesh zen bones; a collection of zen and pre-zen writings" I turned to page 121 randomly. It is case 5. Kyogen Mounts the tree.

If that doesn't count, I have "zen mind, beginner's mind" and I turned to page 42.

If that doesn't work then I'm pretty much out of books by zen masters and we will have to resort to using science textbooks and military history books.

Hi Catfish,

I meant more that someone should say "Ta Hui p 85" or "Hui Neng p 23" ... but we are short on volunteers, so this will do.

Both the sections happen to be about actually getting past a one sided, or merely intellectual understanding of these things, and living them.

In Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, page 42, Suzuki Roshi is discussing duality and the non-dualistic relationship of form (including our small self) and emptiness/Buddha nature, and how our inherent "Buddha nature" is not an escape from the need to practice, and how "emptiness" is not to escape from the beauty and ugliness of life in Samsara. They are not two.

When you say “Whatever I do is Buddha nature, so it doesn’t matter what I do, and there is no need to practice zazen,” that is already a dualistic understanding of our everyday life… As long as you are concerned about what you do, that is dualistic. ...

... [A couple of paragraphs later] “When you suffer from an illness like cancer, and you realize you cannot live more than two or three years, then seeking something upon which to rely, you may start practice ... start the practice of zazen. His practice will be concentrated on obtaining emptiness of mind. That means he is trying to be free from the suffering of duality. This is the practice of “form is emptiness and emptiness is form.” Because of the truth of emptiness, he wants to have the actual realization of it in his life. If he practices in this way, believing and making an effort, it will help him, of course, but it is not perfect practice.

Knowing that your life is short, to enjoy it day after day, moment after moment, is the life of “form is form and emptiness is emptiness.” When Buddha comes, you will welcome him; when the devil comes, you will welcome him.

The Koan about Kyogen is a bit more obscure (being a Koan) and hard to show directly. A man is hanging from a cliff by his teeth, and is asked why "Bodhidharma came to China" (itself another famous Koan). Seemingly, if he opens his mouth to answer, he falls and dies. However, Mumon's comment is something like "if he truly answers, he escapes life and death into True Life, and if he keeps his mouth shut he won't understand for countless small reborn lives". Harder to see, but again about the our relationship to the True Face/Life beyond life and death. Also, you have to really pierce this in the guts ... not just have an intellectual understanding. Notice also the reference at the end to "ego killing poison", which actually praises this good poison that "kills the small self" (ego).

Next? More names please!

Gassho, J

[Saijun]

Hello,

Bodhidharma pp. 108

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

[Jiken]

Hi Jundo

How about...

Ikkyu pg 78
Eisai pg 142

Good Luck!


Gassho

Daido

PS. I dont know if this applies but how about Ryokan pg 10

[Run_CMD]

Don't know if there's any books from these, just random :

Ko-Bong Gyeong-Uk page 77
Lin-chi I-hsuan page 37
Buddhamitra page 10

:-)

[Dosho]

Keizan 42

[Jundo]

Hello,

Bodhidharma pp. 108

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

Now we are cooking!

From the "Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma", translations by Red Pine, page 108-9 in the "Breakthrough Sermon" (probably, by the way, not actually historically written by "Bodhidharma" in fact ... but written by some other old Zen guy way back, and cherished since that time ... so good enough for our purposes! )

Our true buddha-nature has no shape. And the dust of affliction has no form. How can people use ordinary water to wash an intangible body? ... From this you should realize that washing something external isn't what the Buddha meant.


Ikkyu pg 78
Eisai pg 142

There is not a lot by Eisai to have a "pg 142", but I will quote the start of his Kōzen Gokokuron ...

Great indeed is the Mind! Heaven’s height is immeasurable, but Mind rises above Heaven; the earth’s depth is also unfathomable, but Mind reaches below the earth. The light of the sun and moon cannot be outdistanced, yet Mind passes beyond the light of the sun and moon. The universe is limitless, yet Mind travels beyond the universe. Though referred to as Space, or the Primal Energy that gives rise to myriad existence, it is Mind that encompasses Space and generates Primal Energy. Because of it, the sky shelters from above and the earth supports from below. Because of it, the sun and moon rotate, the four seasons change, and all things are generated. Great indeed is Mind!

When I googled "Ikkyu poem 78" I found this: Ikkyu was often writing about sex as much as emptiness (also not two, by the way) ... but I did find this, his poem on the heart sutra ... clear dew drops appearing red ... .

Void in form
When, just as they are,
Clear dewdrops gather,
On scarlet maple leaves,
Regard the scarlet beads!

Ko-Bong Gyeong-Uk page 77
Lin-chi I-hsuan page 37
Buddhamitra page 10

I could not find a book by Ko-Bong Gyeong-Uk (a Korean teacher whom I had never heard of before, by the way), but there is this talk by him ...

All great Zen Masters teach the whole world about one point. But this one point cannot be seen or heard, and it has no name and no form, so opening their mouths is already a big mistake. How can you make these great Zen Masters' teaching correct? If you want to do that, don't check good and bad, don't hold life and death, and put down your opinion and condition. Only go straight through the raging fires and attain no form, no emptiness. Then you will wake up to the wooden chicken's crowing." Holding up his stick, he asked, "Do you see?" Then, hitting it on the table, "Do you hear?" He paused for a second, and then asked, "Did you find your original face? How many eyes are there?"
After a moment of silence he shouted,"KATZ!"
Then he said, "LOOK!"

Book of Rinzai (Lin-chi) page 37 ...

[You should realize] that the four elements (fire, air, water, earth, that traditionally were said to make all the "matter" of the universe) are like a dream, like a fantasy. Followers of the Way, the one who is right now listening to my talk is not made of the four elements, but is using these four elements. When your understanding reaches this level, you are free to go and stay.

For Buddhamitra, all I could find was the section for the Transmission of the Light, when he was awakened upon hearing ...

And this is what the Mind of Buddhas is. If you search externally for a Buddha with form, He will not resemble you. If you want to know your intrinsic Mind, You are neither one with it nor separate.

and

One day, the Venerable [Buddhamitra] was reciting a sutra and he expounded on the birthless [nature of all things]

Keep em' coming!

Gassho, J