Just as you thought you understood...

[Rich]

I use it often in my life, as whats up brother or bro, its old hippie slang; as is hey man, whats up, which i also have use here on these forums and in my daily life. Like hey man, or thanks, man. In this particular case here, I was actually reaching a hand out to Taigu, and felt comfortable using it, because he had earlier in the forum. Thank you, Rich.

You are welcome, Galen. Did try to read that metaphysical link but I'm just not that interested. Is mental gymnastics to me and I already do enough of that. This practice is a body mind practice. So if understanding that motivates you to do the real practice great! Otherwise fagettaaboutit.

[galen]

You are welcome, Galen. Did try to read that metaphysical link but I'm just not that interested. Is mental gymnastics to me and I already do enough of that. This practice is a body mind practice. So if understanding that motivates you to do the real practice great! Otherwise fagettaaboutit.

I will have to agree with you, Rich. It was/has been part of my life and parts will probably remain for a while, it could be worse I'm sure. It was not posted to make a case for it at all, I just picked up this site by googling Dogen and have read some of the things there, and hadn't even got around to reading this piece I linked here. I figured the site might be a good intro into Dogen, to get me started.... thats all, and only because the term was brought up from Taigus post. I like your fagettaaboutit, well done and thanks.

[disastermouse]

I got blocked when I got to the 'Cherry Tree' being 'reality as such'. This has been demolished by the 'Myth of the Given' and post-structuralist philosophy in general. There may be a referent, but that is not the same as 'reality as such', as all referents are interpreted via senses that vary by physiology and biases induced by language, culture, and constructed personal narrative.

IMHO

Chet

[Taigu]

Could you please explain what you want to say, I want to say sorry to you because I don't get it.

Tank you, Chet


gassho

Taigu

[disastermouse]

Taigu,

Which part? The cherry tree refers to the link Galen posted. The Myth of the Given is a term coined by Wilfred Sellars:

From Wikipedia:

"Sellars' most famous work is the lengthy and difficult paper, Empiricism and the Philosophy of Mind. In it, he criticises the view that knowledge of what we perceive can be independent of the conceptual processes which result in perception. He named this "The Myth of the Given," attributing it to phenomenology and sense-data theories of knowledge.".

There are parallels in Eastern thought, although I don't recall them being stated as explicitly or readily available to the Western mind.

Chet

[Taigu]

Thank you Chet, you see the little I know I got from conversations with JF Lyotard and other guys...Interesting, anyway.

gassho

Taigu

[disastermouse]

Thank you Chet, you see the little I know I got from conversations with JF Lyotard and other guys...Interesting, anyway.

gassho

Taigu

I had to look him up, LOL! I have no true liberal arts education (yet) and my understanding of these things comes from other people summarizing the work. Occasionally, my friend (a PhD in Rhetoric and Composition) corrects my misguided conclusions about the context and meaning of what I'm exposed to.

Gassho,

Chet

[Taigu]

As a lecturer I worked with him and many other guys some 20 years ago. Doesn t make me intelligent. Just curious.

take care


gassho


Taigu

[RichardH]

I got blocked when I got to the 'Cherry Tree' being 'reality as such'. This has been demolished by the 'Myth of the Given' and post-structuralist philosophy in general. There may be a referent, but that is not the same as 'reality as such', as all referents are interpreted via senses that vary by physiology and biases induced by language, culture, and constructed personal narrative.

IMHO

Chet

Hi Chet. There is always an assumed and hidden given in any intellectual position taken, period. including in post-structuralist given demolition. It is just sneakier, and stickier.. None of the "reality as such" teachings stand up to examination as an ontological claim, but that is not their purpose or point. The point is to get to the cushion and stick with that, dropping "reality as such" along with every other notion..

.... now is this putting on the hat of a teacher..? no of course not, I can only speak from my own experience and have no sanction of any kind, but maybe yes, in an honest having-banged-my-head against-that-wall way. It also means if an actual teacher tells me I am barking up the wrong tree, it is time to stop and listen... even if it is a bit squirmy for my stupid pride.

Gassho, kojip

[disastermouse]

Hi Chet. There is always an assumed and hidden given in any intellectual position taken, period. including in post-structuralist given demolition. It is just sneakier, and stickier.. None of the "reality as such" teachings stand up to examination as an ontological claim, but that is not their purpose or point. The point is to get to the cushion and stick with that, dropping "reality as such" along with every other notion..

.... now is this putting on the hat of a teacher..? no of course not, I can only speak from my own experience and have no sanction of any kind, but maybe yes, in an honest having-banged-my-head against-that-wall way. It also means if an actual teacher tells me I am barking up the wrong tree, it is time to stop and listen... even if it is a bit squirmy for my stupid pride.

Gassho, kojip

I listened, I just don't accept the judgment - I think it's based on an inaccurate assumption about my intentions. Also, 'Myth of the Given' isn't a demolition of anything but a misconception. It's not a destruction of reality, it's a destruction of an assumption that's not ontologically accurate - and recognizing the myth of the given is pretty important in seeing through many of our inaccurate assumptions about how we construct our reality. If it's supposed to be skillful means, it's not very skillful.

[RichardH]

I listened, I just don't accept the judgment - I think it's based on an inaccurate assumption about my intentions. Also, 'Myth of the Given' isn't a demolition of anything but a misconception. It's not a destruction of reality, it's a destruction of an assumption that's not ontologically accurate - and recognizing the myth of the given is pretty important in seeing through many of our inaccurate assumptions about how we construct our reality. If it's supposed to be skillful means, it's not very skillful.

I can't speak to anyone's inaccurate assumption of your intentions, and won't touch ontological accuracy with a ten foot pole. I will invite you to sit with me. This morning during the 6:30 7:10 sitting (with two other folks) I turned the mic off after ringing the bell as usual. Halfway through the sitting I farted (it happens), and Google responded with a prompt saying if I have something to say I should turn on my mic. The wisdom of Google!

Anyway , no matter. Gassho.

[galen]

I can't speak to anyone's inaccurate assumption of your intentions, and won't touch ontological accuracy with a ten foot pole. I will invite you to sit with me. This morning during the 6:30 7:10 sitting (with two other folks) I turned the mic off after ringing the bell as usual. Halfway through the sitting I farted (it happens), and Google responded with a prompt saying if I have something to say I should turn on my mic. The wisdom of Google!

Anyway , no matter. Gassho.

Hi Kojip,

I am enjoying yours and disastermouses discussion, or should I say, what I can decipher from it . Can I ask you... what does/did your invitation to `the mouse to sit `with, have as a purpose in your seemingly kindly reaching out?

[alan.r]

I Halfway through the sitting I farted (it happens), and Google responded with a prompt saying if I have something to say I should turn on my mic.

Lol.

[Mp]

Halfway through the sitting I farted (it happens), and Google responded with a prompt saying if I have something to say I should turn on my mic. The wisdom of Google!

I too have to laugh, thank you for this Kojip.

Gassho
Michael

[RichardH]

Can I ask you... what does/did your invitation to `the mouse to sit `with, have as a purpose in your seemingly kindly reaching out?

The purpose of the invitation is to invite. There are group sittings , Google+ hangouts here. There are usually several going on everyday facilitated by members, both the ordained sangha, and the lay folks like me. It is sitting in the same room in many ways... sharing presence, wonderful and really supportive of practice. Text based rancor has no footing, when we just sit together.

Gassho, kojip.