Great Doubt, or "The Question"

[disastermouse]

Deleted by Jundo

[Jundo]

Dear Chet,

I had to delete your post as an invasion of someone's privacy. If the person would like to discuss the topic on their own, that is fine. But you should not.

From time to time (very rarely), it is my responsibility to ask for a medical check if someone wants to participate here because I feel there may be possible risks due to the person's physical or psychological state, fragility, danger to themselves or the like, no different from a gym or swimming school requiring a doctor's note. That was such a case, the person refused to comply and was briefly suspended. At the time, I did not know the person, so did not know how to judge the situation and (in hindsight) was likely overly concerned. However, I don't know for sure what was really going on, could not tell at the time, and that happened 4 years ago. Similar situations have only happened twice (if I recall) all the years this place has been here.

In addition, I have also had to suspend a handful of people for fighting with other Sangha members, or confused or abusive posting and the like. That has happened so rarely these last 5 years that I can count the cases on one hand. We also have an ethics committee in place to oversee these very rare cases now.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7607-Treeleaf-Ethics-Committee-%28-Complaint-Box-%29

Chet, are you trying to stir up something again? We've had this before.

Gassho, Jundo

[disastermouse]

Dear Chet,

I had to delete your post as an invasion of someone's privacy. If the person would like to discuss the topic on their own, that is fine. But you should not.

From time to time (very rarely), it is my responsibility to ask for a medical check if someone wants to participate here because I feel there may be possible risks due to the person's physical or psychological state, fragility, danger to themselves or the like, no different from a gym or swimming school requiring a doctor's note. That was such a case, the person refused to comply and was briefly suspended. At the time, I did not know the person, so did not know how to judge the situation and (in hindsight) was likely overly concerned. However, I don't know for sure what was really going on, could not tell at the time, and that happened 4 years ago. Similar situations have only happened twice (if I recall) all the years this place has been here.

In addition, I have also had to suspend a handful of people for fighting with other Sangha members, or confused or abusive posting and the like. That has happened so rarely these last 5 years that I can count the cases on one hand. We also have an ethics committee in place to oversee these very rare cases now.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7607-Treeleaf-Ethics-Committee-%28-Complaint-Box-%29

Chet, are you trying to stir up something again? We've had this before.

Gassho, Jundo

Jundo,

I'm not trying to stir anything up; in fact, I was trying to veer as far away from value judgements as I could and was just trying to stick to the facts. It's all water under the bridge - I just wanted to catch some people up with some context. People might benefit from some insight as to why Stephanie may appear to have a chip on her shoulder. I also wanted to let people know that I'm very close friends with Stephanie, so that any unconscious biases might be known.

The last thing I want to do is rehash old, ill-considered battles. Talking about that history wasn't an attempt to re-join the battle.

No offense was intended and no blame was placed.

Chet

[Eika]

No one has ever claimed that the way things are done here is for everybody. The ones who find a home in this practice are the ones whose temperament suits this way. Big surprise--a self-selected group. I am often left with the feeling that Stephanie wants everyone else to feel as unsettled as she is here. Some connect, some don't. IT'S NO BIG DEAL. Move on. No great harm has come to anyone here. I simply do not understand the desire to continually chase question after question after question, then wonder why we all don't spend hours discussing the same questions. Seeking begets seeking. Just because "she means well," which I imagine she does, does not mean that her posts are constructive. I find they rarely are. I also will echo and amplify Amelia's words by saying it is rather juvenile to post then bolt.

I'm not for sugar-coated, sycophantic interactions, but neither am I for "let's compare our dukkha" drama. We're ALL fighting a hard battle that we've already won but don't know it. I'm not sure about any extenuating circumstances in Stephanie's or anyone else's life, but again, WE ALL HAVE ISSUES! Maybe hers are big enough that she can't keep a lid on the pressure cooker and the stuff leaks out all the time. If that's the case, then I'm truly sorry for the tone of my post. But her posts scream "me, me, me!"
Again, if there's more to this (and there always is, isn't there?) than I am privy to, I apologize, but collectively we are not therapists nor philosophers.

Eika




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[Jundo]

Let's settle, sit ... Metta all around.

If we are described as being tranquil and dropping debates around this community ... now may be a good time to live up to the reputation.

If Stephanie would like to come herself to join the conversation, she is welcome and should. However, we should stop putting words in her mouth about her meaning and thoughts.

Gassho, J

[pinoybuddhist]

If Stephanie would like to come herself to join the conversation, she is welcome and should. However, we should stop putting words in her mouth about her meaning and thoughts.

Gassho, J

^^
What he said.

Breathe in, breathe out...

Raf

[Graceleejenkins]

Back to Great Doubt for a moment. I have been thinking. I think there is Great Doubt in many religions and philosophies. And again, thinking in resonse to Stephanie's post, I think this Great Doubt may come from the fact that there doesn't ever appear to be a final and once-and-for-all-eternity Answer. For example, in Christianity, even Christ, even at death, questioned: "Why has Thou forsaken me?"

I once asked Dosho if he thought that, if you ever actually became enlightened, you could lose that enlightenment? His answer quoted another teacher who said, "Try it and see."

I think maybe in Zen, we re-create the Answer every time we sit, so, thus, there is also always the Great Doubt--as a two sided coin, to borrow one of Jundo's similes. Gassho, Grace.

[Jundo]

I think maybe in Zen, we re-create the Answer every time we sit, so, thus, there is also always the Great Doubt--as a two sided coin, to borrow one of Jundo's similes. Gassho, Grace.

That's "Two sides of a no sided coin!"

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Speaking to the enlightenment question, Hagen likened an enlightened person to a pedestrian. When a person gets into a car or sits down, where did the 'pedestrian' go? That is: Enlightenment is really enlightenment activity (or non-activity).

And yet, the Buddha talked about stream-entry, so surely that must reference an aspect of "I guess I'm well and truly fucked now, better try to get to the other shore!"

Chet

[galen]

Chet,

I agree that Stephanie is trying to draw attention to something she thinks we may be missing. When I came to Treeleaf, and you know this well, I believed I was broken, empty, and less than adequate to being a valuable person...I still think that way, plenty. But studying here at Treeleaf I am slowly learning, with your help, Stephanie's help, and everyone else here that nothing is broken, nothing is inadequate, and nothing is missing. Now, taken to an extreme that could lead to a very large ego and self centeredness...and a belief in mantras or a room full of frames we buy in a gift shop with inspirational quotes from the Buddha or Dogen. But I don't believe I'm likely to forget those feelings since they never really go away. And for folks like me, sitting with the idea that nothing is lacking offers a great freedom, but also a responsibility.

Do not mistake our fellow sangha members saying that they do not agree with Stephanie to be dismissing what she has to say. It may be very profound and if it works for her I am most grateful! But I still see much of the cyclical thinking that Stephanie has always displayed, which she likes to call "Great Doubt", but I think is closer to the skeptical doubt she mentioned in her post. These questions will never end because they are designed to open packages, see what's inside, and move on to the next one. Again, and again, and again.

I know you are unlikely to agree with what I have said and offer a defense of Stephanie's post, but I do believe she is well intentioned. But I think her attempt to diagnose what is wrong with Treeleaf blinds her to the fact that she is constantly trying to answer what is wrong with herself. We have gladly taken her in here and asked her several times to go through jukai and fully put herself into what is taught here and actually we have asked the same of you. I truly feel that, until you both do that (assuming there is still a part of you that wants to) you will both be drifting from experience to experience trying to uncover truths that were right in front of you for years.

And, so you know, writing IMHO at the end of the post says to me that you think we don't trust your sincerity and need to create a shield from criticism. We trust you and know your are sincere...but sit, sew a rakusu with us, and take in what there is to be learned here. Many zen practioners go from one tradition to another as they mature...there's no reason you can't have a different way of looking at things. But until you immerse yourselves in that dissatisfaction you feel, I fear you will always be consumed by it.

Gassho,
Dosho

When I first read here the suggestion of taking jukia, my sarcastic mind said hmmm, so this is what the practice in attaining jukia looks like, hmmm.

[Stephanie]

Well, this is what I get for dropping a "bomb" like that post and not being able to come back to it for a week!

First, I want to clarify a few key points:

1) I do not feel like I have "got it" or like I am more spiritually advanced than others, etc. Far from it! One thing I yearn for is to find others with whom I can share my journey as it is still ongoing, and I find that there is a certain point where I cannot relate even with other Zen Buddhists, depending on their approach to practice. And that is okay! I truly do not believe there is "one true way" for everyone. But I do feel like there is an essential difference between my experience of practice and the one that is expressed by the majority here, and my first post in this thread is how I have learned to articulate that difference. The point is I actually do respect that people are sincerely practicing here - and I like the people here, for the most part. I just don't "fit" into the way of practice here. Again, I see that as okay. The way I see the rivalry between Soto and Rinzai is as a friendly rivalry (whether it was always truly friendly), a pushing back and forth that can benefit people on either side of the rivalry, as no one view or approach could ever completely exhaust or capture "it," whatever "it" is. This brings us to Point #2:

2) I do not identify as a Rinzai Zen Buddhist, nor do I do formal koan practice. Chet hit the nail on the head with his first reply to this thread, that I am trying to drive at something deeper than a particular practice, an attitude or orientation that can infuse either. I find my practice, no matter what I experiment with, always comes back to shikantaza.

3) I tried but do not believe I did an adequate job in my post of delineating between what I see as my own personality quirks and/or weaknesses and the attitude of The Question. Yes, I can obsess, and get angsty; a deep depressive streak has come down to me through the generations. And though I believe that a depressive disposition can lend itself to expressing The Question more freely, and while I embrace who I am without shame, I don't see this personality of mine as in any way essential to this matter. There is no need to be preoccupied with darkness for those who do not feel a natural calling to such. It is just one way of being in a world where there are many ways of being that are not better or worse than each other.

Was I depressed at the time of my heaviest involvement here? I cannot say I was not. Was I in the danger Jundo feared? Not at all, and I would fault Jundo for assuming professional knowledge he does not have as far as all that went, but it is a gentle fault, a presumption with what I suspect was a mix of well-meaning and genuine fear behind it.

But all that is past. What I would emphasize here is the distinction between the dark heart of the depressive in the midst of a depression and the uneasy fire of one consumed by The Question. At the time in question, I was both. And I do believe there is a relationship there, but not an essential one. You can be consumed by a question without any depressed quality to it at all. But there is... an uneasiness. And that is what I find a natural resistance to at Treeleaf - letting uneasiness sit with you for too long. Because, well, it's uncomfortable! But I do think there are virtues in doing so. One is the quality of aliveness, the opposite of "the Soto Zen mellow." While that mellow can be nice, it can also contribute to "blahs" or doldrums. The attitude of The Question is the attitude of the warrior - being invigorated by being in uneasy circumstances. It's like an ignition key.

And I would say from experience that The Question is more of a feeling than anything else. It is not a thought or particular question. So yes, the mind can churn out a lot of garbage while the Question is active. I would never try to claim that every angsty thought that I expressed was profound or true. What I would distinguish is the attitude that carried me forth into my life circumstances, the big oppressive city I found myself in, the losses, the loneliness, the depression - the willingness to turn into all of this, to use it, instead of push it all away. The Question that can ask, "What is all of this?" and sit with it rather than come to a snap judgment that it is good or bad to be in such a place or state. Without the Question, we may flee from the forces amassed on the horizon, rather than charge ahead with our battle cry.

For is that not the fundamental teaching here at Treeleaf - one I embrace and respect - that the field of practice is the field of our entire life and world, that the realm of sambhogakaya Buddhas is the same as the dirty streets of a city full of suffering? New York - and the mind and life circumstances that brought me there - challenged what I wanted to believe about life, people, and the world. It shook my spiritual convictions to the core, and I was left with the ashes of everything I once turned to for reassurance and comfort. And I am grateful I turned into it, looked deeply at it, sat with it, pushed none of it away. Again, the point is - you don't have to go to New York, geographically or metaphorically; what I am encouraging is this turning toward rather than turning away, with the attitude of pushing deeper into the jungles of The Question in whatever form it takes.

4) Finally, I would encourage this turning toward rather than turning away not just in one's own life, but in regard to others. I do not blame people for taking a critical post and responding to it with criticism of me, and I can take the heat. But by pathologizing me, you are also pathologizing anyone else who finds him or herself in a similar place. And just as you are right to remind me I am not better than you, nor are you better or wiser than the person who is depressed or in darkness. We can all learn from each other, and I think we should be wary of judging others who may be in more difficult circumstances than us - internally, externally, or both - as being less than us, flawed, deserving of their circumstances because we see them as having brought those circumstances on themselves. I have to struggle with this almost every day as my job brings me in contact with people I almost instinctively judge - addicts still in the midst of their addiction, people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves, people who are violent, people who use others, and so on. And lately I am realizing - the problem isn't any particular kind of person, it's the human nature we all share. In every person who presents himself or herself in front of us, we see the presentation of something that is in us too. So we can either look more deeply at ourselves, or define what we see as "Other," seeing it as something to be fixed or thrown away. But you can't fix Reality. You can only turn toward it, or away from it.

[Rich]

Thanks Stephanie. Very eloquent. One reason I participate with TreeLeaf is that it is a continuous learning experience from people like yourself. Like you said there is an uneasiness, something missing and we need to face it head on.

[galen]

Its seems the Great Doubt or The Question is nothing more then, something blown out of proportion by the small mind of an ego creation. It only seems real if we buy into this illusion all filled up with delusion. Seemingly its a lot about nothing, and nothing to great either. If there can be some softening of the arrogance and pettiness of our ego, giving more voice to the intuition, what question can exist...? it just Is. it may be dramatics, attention getting, for the need to control.

Can’t everything be great, esp when capitalized, and 100,000 words follow to make it so? It could be the call for sitting on it, and not any explanation needed. Great Doubt, The Question, The Drama, the unending chasing of the tail !?

[Eika]

Great post, Stephanie. I apologize for my tone in my last post. In haste, I forgot that we all have built in tendencies that determine much of the way we communicate. My wishing that your posts be something other than what they are is my issue, not yours. I'm truly sorry for my attitude. It is rare for me to get huffy about posts, but I had a terrible day at work . . . Not an excuse, but an honest factor.

My best to you.

Eika (Bill)


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[Keishin]

Hellos to all posting here!
I have been occupied with too many other things, and time constraints do not permit even a moderate/light participation. But I thought I'd drop by for a visit with long time friends in this practice. I came upon this post and it felt like I'd never left!

One teacher of mine, Rev. Bob McNeil (Matsuoka Roshi, Soto Lineage) used to tell us that 'when the question goes away it is just as satisfying as getting an answer.'

In my limited experience I have found this to be a wise observation. I have shoveled answers at questions, my own and others...it will only stave off the insatiable hunger of the question, the doubt, whatever we want to call it--for so long.

On the other hand, this practice of sitting allows all that stuff percolating in the brain pan, and all that stuff bound in muscular tensions in various parts of the body to settle out somewhat, to settle down. Zazen allows me to 'put my burden down', even if, while sitting, I give it a few more Herculean hefty lifts.

When sitting I observe my body, my mind. I relax the tense body parts as I come across them. I watch the thoughts and try to let the 'thought train' run on through, without 'getting on board the thought train.' Each time I sit there are varying degrees of success at this. Practice after all does mean 'practice.'

Of all human activities I think zazen is a human being's closest cousin to a cat's purr.

'At this very moment, what more need we seek? For this very land is the Land of Lotuses, and this very body is the Body of the Buddha'

I usually just stop at the part of the quote 'At this very moment, what more need I seek?'

Already that says it all to me.

When my mind is unsettled, and won't settle, then it's a loud and jostling train I'm on--and even then, I still can ask 'at this very moment, what more need I seek?'

Up in the threads somewhere Grace asked about enlightenment...I believe it was something to the effect 'does an enlightened person know they're enlightened?

Another teacher (can't remember who just now) explained to us that the first casualty of 'enlightenment' is 'enlightenment' itself! (Now if that don't beat all...)

Liberation, no self, emptiness, no attachment...we use a whole lotta words because we think we are on the outside looking in. My nose pressed against this glass I have handblown and installed myself--I see what look like ordinary people sweeping, taking out trash, hanging up laundry, drinking tea and washing their bowls.
Indeed, when I am engaged in similar activities of daily life, I have joined them...has the questioner or the question disappeared? These two hands fish a wandering spider out of the sink with the dish towel and return from a green leafy world to the world of soap and water, white porcelain and Formica...these two hands rejoin the soapy water ...

I am very grateful to have this practice in my life and to have sangha to share it with and senior practioners and teachers and newcomers. I don't know what I would have done without it, it is for life, for the rest of my life...
Only my practice is my practice, no one else can do it for me...
my practice suits me perfectly: it is tailor made for me--like my very own skin.

Another teacher would say--'knowing is intimate, not knowing--more intimate still.'

These days I am full of gratitude and my eyes find themselves full of tear, but not sad ones...

I am ready to leave buddhism, to leave the rakusu, the mala, and all, but I cannot, others who are seeking blindly for something and finding this practice need these traces of things and other some such and so I assist weekly with a Ch'an meditation group, and that's where I've been spending my time....

I like to keep answers short--25 words, double that maybe, but I am endulging myself and making up for lost time...as I can see here everyone is well and thriving--bueno! and gassho!

In gratitude to all teachers past, present and future,
keishin