Great Doubt, or "The Question"

[Jundo]

Let's settle, sit ... Metta all around.

If we are described as being tranquil and dropping debates around this community ... now may be a good time to live up to the reputation.

If Stephanie would like to come herself to join the conversation, she is welcome and should. However, we should stop putting words in her mouth about her meaning and thoughts.

Gassho, J

[Eika]

No one has ever claimed that the way things are done here is for everybody. The ones who find a home in this practice are the ones whose temperament suits this way. Big surprise--a self-selected group. I am often left with the feeling that Stephanie wants everyone else to feel as unsettled as she is here. Some connect, some don't. IT'S NO BIG DEAL. Move on. No great harm has come to anyone here. I simply do not understand the desire to continually chase question after question after question, then wonder why we all don't spend hours discussing the same questions. Seeking begets seeking. Just because "she means well," which I imagine she does, does not mean that her posts are constructive. I find they rarely are. I also will echo and amplify Amelia's words by saying it is rather juvenile to post then bolt.

I'm not for sugar-coated, sycophantic interactions, but neither am I for "let's compare our dukkha" drama. We're ALL fighting a hard battle that we've already won but don't know it. I'm not sure about any extenuating circumstances in Stephanie's or anyone else's life, but again, WE ALL HAVE ISSUES! Maybe hers are big enough that she can't keep a lid on the pressure cooker and the stuff leaks out all the time. If that's the case, then I'm truly sorry for the tone of my post. But her posts scream "me, me, me!"
Again, if there's more to this (and there always is, isn't there?) than I am privy to, I apologize, but collectively we are not therapists nor philosophers.

Eika




Sent from tapatalk

Dear Chet,

I had to delete your post as an invasion of someone's privacy. If the person would like to discuss the topic on their own, that is fine. But you should not.

From time to time (very rarely), it is my responsibility to ask for a medical check if someone wants to participate here because I feel there may be possible risks due to the person's physical or psychological state, fragility, danger to themselves or the like, no different from a gym or swimming school requiring a doctor's note. That was such a case, the person refused to comply and was briefly suspended. At the time, I did not know the person, so did not know how to judge the situation and (in hindsight) was likely overly concerned. However, I don't know for sure what was really going on, could not tell at the time, and that happened 4 years ago. Similar situations have only happened twice (if I recall) all the years this place has been here.

In addition, I have also had to suspend a handful of people for fighting with other Sangha members, or confused or abusive posting and the like. That has happened so rarely these last 5 years that I can count the cases on one hand. We also have an ethics committee in place to oversee these very rare cases now.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7607-Treeleaf-Ethics-Committee-%28-Complaint-Box-%29

Chet, are you trying to stir up something again? We've had this before.

Gassho, Jundo

Jundo,

I'm not trying to stir anything up; in fact, I was trying to veer as far away from value judgements as I could and was just trying to stick to the facts. It's all water under the bridge - I just wanted to catch some people up with some context. People might benefit from some insight as to why Stephanie may appear to have a chip on her shoulder. I also wanted to let people know that I'm very close friends with Stephanie, so that any unconscious biases might be known.

The last thing I want to do is rehash old, ill-considered battles. Talking about that history wasn't an attempt to re-join the battle.

No offense was intended and no blame was placed.

Chet

[Jundo]

Dear Chet,

I had to delete your post as an invasion of someone's privacy. If the person would like to discuss the topic on their own, that is fine. But you should not.

From time to time (very rarely), it is my responsibility to ask for a medical check if someone wants to participate here because I feel there may be possible risks due to the person's physical or psychological state, fragility, danger to themselves or the like, no different from a gym or swimming school requiring a doctor's note. That was such a case, the person refused to comply and was briefly suspended. At the time, I did not know the person, so did not know how to judge the situation and (in hindsight) was likely overly concerned. However, I don't know for sure what was really going on, could not tell at the time, and that happened 4 years ago. Similar situations have only happened twice (if I recall) all the years this place has been here.

In addition, I have also had to suspend a handful of people for fighting with other Sangha members, or confused or abusive posting and the like. That has happened so rarely these last 5 years that I can count the cases on one hand. We also have an ethics committee in place to oversee these very rare cases now.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7607-Treeleaf-Ethics-Committee-%28-Complaint-Box-%29

Chet, are you trying to stir up something again? We've had this before.

Gassho, Jundo

Deleted by Jundo

[Amelia]

Pretty interesting articles really, and I recommend everybody at Treeleaf read them.

They are interesting. I enjoyed them.

I mean, I don’t know you Stephanie and it seems you’ve “found” something really great for you, or whatever (I can never phrase these things well enough, apologies), but the strategies of the post and the overall purposes of it, which seem complex to me, seem suspect and worth raising at least a tiny other perspective.

It doesn't seem to me, from reading the post, that Stephanie has found anything, religious or otherwise. I don't mean this to say that she is lacking in anything. I mean this to say that I didn't get that vibe from the post. The vibe I got was that she is caught in some sort of loop of thinking. Apologies if I have missed the mark.

Further, who wants to read a bunch of stuff about how we’ve all suffered, really suffered, and here are the details of it, and how now we’re in the light, whatever light that might be – frankly, most suffering, unless you’re a really talented writer, is actually pretty banal stuff, and is mainly self-imposed (again, I could very well be wrong here, but that was my experience of “darkness,” years and years of it, and even in the midst of years and years of it, that always nagging thought, feeling, perception: “am I just pretending somehow?”).

I agree. All the years that I felt so different and tortured were really self-inflicted and wrought with narcissism. Yes, I am different from most people, but I don't have to force the point or even really think about it too much. Stephanie, I am in no way trying to imply that you are doing the same. I am merely sharing my experience.

The difference is that all other religions offer something to pour into that sense of an original wound. Zen does not do this. In fact, there is no original wound at all, but you don't realize this without confronting the fact that it feels as though there is an original wound - that something is off-kilter. In fact, my understanding is that the literal image of the word 'samsara' is a wheel off true - that is, with the axle incorrectly placed.

I like that. It makes sense to me.

You're flirting with the idea that because Stephanie and I haven't taken Jukai, we are somehow less Buddhist or that our arguments have less weight.

I know this minor bump was smoothed between you and Dosho, but I would like to mention that I resisted the hell out of Jukai at first-- not to imply that you need to do it-- but then came out better for it. I can't speak for you, but for me, the things I resist the most are usually very good for me. This could be about anything from Jukai to quitting smoking.

Something I find interesting is that Stephanie left us with that post and has not joined in the discussion she started. It is like throwing a word grenade in a room where we all happen to be standing and then running away, leaving us to sort out the details we can't know because we are not her.

[galen]

Hitting home. Thank you, Jundo.

Jundo - and all who have participated in this thread -

Willow

I agree! I have not said much in this thread, but I have been reading every word that has been said. Thank you ALL for putting it out there.

Gassho
Michael

[Jinyo]

Jundo - and all who have participated in this thread -

Willow

[Jundo]

Here, by the way, is typical advice I have offered to victims of child abuse and rape. Even as we "let it be, let it go" and avoid many of the mental traps and snares, it is not some simple numbness or sweeping under the rug ...

-----------------------------------------


I hope that victims of child abuse or rape (the abused child or raped person) can learn to let the past go ... learn to see their abuser as himself a victim (of greed, anger and ignorance) ... move forward so that the violence does not repeat into the next generation. I hope that they come to see the real culprit as "greed, anger and ignorance." HOWEVER, I often also counsel that it is not so easy ... that there are real scars from these events, not all seen on the skin or easily healed. While letting the past go, trying to not fall into new anger ... one must sometimes also see the scar as the scar sometimes, recognize that it is natural to feel anger and resentment at the attacker ... even as one tries to forgive on some level, see the "real evil" on some level, not be trapped by the anger and resentment and let it go.

I have counseled some victims of child abuse, for example, that ... yes ... from one perspective, we need to forgive and let the past go and understand that the person who did this was filled with greed, anger, violence. From another perspective, we also need to recognize that the scars are there, that the person may need to pay a debt for what they have done. Even recognizing our own natural anger at the past is fine ... for it is natural to feel resentment (so long as we do not become its slave). But in any event, the most important thing is not to carry the anger, resentment, abuse etc. into future generations where it will effect our children and coming generations.

Counseling and support groups can greatly aid those who are victims of trauma, hand in hand with Zen practice.

[Jundo]

Hi All,

It is wonderful to have discussions such as this thread from time to time ... honest questionings, in this case, questioning each other, teachers, our selves, "Zen", about whether we are people who question.

Among so many Wise-Compassionate comments here, I highlight a few ...

... For me, the "still center" was and is letting go of my natural inclinations to rage against the storm or try to find shelter.

Yes, Shikantaza. The Bodhisattva Virtue of "Equanimity", even as there are simultaneously things to question, scars which ache, and problems to solve. Clarity, both when things are clear or confused. Being in the storm which often knocks us over, resisting and trying to fight the storm, questioning the whys of the storm ... yet simultaneously not any of that in the least, and no storm.

Lastly, here’s a suspicion of my own: while some people at Treeleaf discuss their personal lives, most of us don’t do this very openly (I don’t mean this negatively). I mean, we all kind of use abstracts, to some degree, and it’s rare when any of us really gets into the details, the real details of our lives ...

Without breaking confidences, people write me privately almost each day about (and many post directly in this Forum and discuss openly too) cancer diagnosis, unbearable depression, scars of violent child abuse in their past, having killed someone years ago, hidden doubts about self worth, struggles with sexuality, shames they have never even told their spouse. The "Zen answer" in all cases has to be ... let it go, let it be. Let the past go, let the future come. Just Sit Now ... even as you sit with/as/through the questions, pain, scars. Moan and cry and question too if you need (we are not cold stones or machines in our neck of the Buddhist woods) ... for to do so is a moaning, crying, questioning Buddha.

Sometimes "let it go, let it be" actually makes the problems vanish POOF! Other times, not ... any more than Zazen will fix a bad tooth (you need a dentist for that, or to pull it out yourself, or just live with it), Nonetheless, in all cases the Buddha will still be there to say "let it go, let it be" even as you seek a solution or when there is not solution. For those toothaches or cancers or emotional scars that cannot be healed and remain ... the Buddha will still say "let it go, let it be", even as we moan and cry and question.

It is good and natural ... human ... to constantly question why these things are, why life is the way it is. I do every day. However, we are not "Oprah", and while we face head-on the cancer, depression, child abuse and all the rest ... we Zen folks refuse to wallow in pity parties, self made soap operas, "she said he said" rights and wrong mental debates, whirlpools of thoughts. There is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between honest/straight on/facing-questioning ... and mental games and wallowing.

The Rinzai folks who push through the questions, the Soto folks who "just sit as" the questions, the Vipassana or Tibetan folks who have various approaches to deconstructing the questions, the Pure Land folks who chant their questions to Amida ... all aim for that Clear, Whole "Just Go, Just Be" amid the shitstorm of Samsara.

When I sit, I sit right in the heart of my questions, and as the questions.

The best way of investigating the nature of the wound in my experience, is to investigate your self before the wound, your original nature. When you know what it feels like when the wound is instantly healed, the body made whole again, you also recognize the wound.

Thank you, Doctor. Sometimes the best way to treat wounds is to open them and clean them out. Sometimes we accept the wounds that cannot be healed. In all cases we see that Original Nature which can never be wounded from the start! But we do -not- pick and scratch with dirty little (mental) fingers, because that keeps the wound alive and red. Zen Practice has tools for all such treatments-non-treatments.

... I still see much of the cyclical thinking ... These questions will never end because they are designed to open packages, see what's inside, and move on to the next one. Again, and again, and again.

This is true for all of us. The toughest thing about this Practice is that people truly don't know how to radically, to the marrow sit still ... yield, put down the search and the questions and the constant need to chase after the next thing and the next, to drop all lack, to stop running after the shiniest new "book of answers" or gadget on Amazon, to stop picking their wounds again and again ...

... thereby to find that Real Treasure here all along.

This whole notion of passivity to me seems to be a reflection of looking for things or looking for someone else to push or confront us when no one but ourselves can do the work. Teachers and sangha colleagues are no more, and can be no more than "good friends" who share the path with us and occasionally help us on the way.

Perceived passivity is often boredom looking for an external provocation or sparring partner to relieve the "great doubt" or existential angst that is before one - the external provocation in my mind is sought when there is an absence of "great faith." that certainly has been my case... I often repeat the same old soundtrack or narrative in my life.

And one more thing ...

Treeleaf is very dear to my heart and as uncommitted as I may seem, it's the only Sangha of which I'd ever say I'm a part.

Thank you, Chet. Back at ya.

Jukai is not necessary to "be a Buddhist" or "be part of a Sangha", whatever that is. Only embracing and seeking to live by the Buddhist Teachings is what is really required, and joining in the Sangha family in one's heart.

Of course, like someone who just wants to live together for 20 years and not head to the wedding altar ... Is it truly not wanting to be "part of an institution", or just "lack of a willingness to dive in and commit"? Only the person can question that.

Gassho, J

This whole notion of passivity to me seems to be a reflection of looking for things or looking for someone else to push or confront us when no one but ourselves can do the work. Teachers and sangha colleagues are no more, and can be no more than "good friends" who share the path with us and occasionally help us on the way.

Perceived passivity is often boredom looking for an external provocation or sparring partner to relieve the "great doubt" or existential angst that is before one - the external provocation in my mind is sought when there is an absence of "great faith." that certainly has been my case... I often repeat the same old soundtrack or narrative in my life.

So I go looking for my zafu,
and wonder how many minutes of sitting have been occupied by this thread.

I learn a lot from Stephanie and Chet's posts, I'm really glad they are here, and am so grateful for the thoughtful discourse. I do not feel that I can speak as eloquently as my brothers or sisters but felt compelled to pitch in. Thanks for your patience.

Deep bows,
Yugen

[Jinyo]

The difference is that all other religions offer something to pour into that sense of an original wound. Zen does not do this. In fact, there is no original wound at all, but you don't realize this without confronting the fact that it feels as though there is an original wound - that something is off-kilter. In fact, my understanding is that the literal image of the word 'samsara' is a wheel off true - that is, with the axle incorrectly placed. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all attempt to explain that in terms of a self-soul-ego. Even other schools of Buddhism attempt to do this. Zen, more than most other religions, resists the temptation to do this. That is a particular strength, in my opinion, of Zen. This is not to denigrate other religions or paths at all, but to point to something unique about Zen. If you strip from Zen the things that separates it from other paths, what is left of Zen? It's a very strange inclination to do that, I think.

Chet

Chet - I do understand what you say here - and I wouldn't want to strip from Zen the things that separate it from other paths either.

I don't think I'm going to be able to articulate this very well, but part of the process of my being here is that I've become more open to accepting other paths. I don't know where this is leading to - but I feel more able to re-confiigure my religious upbringing and the strong negative prejudices that came from that, in a way that I haven't been able to before.

There are a lot of strands in this thread - but am I right in thinking that the main point is the suggestion that 'something' is not being confronted within the teaching/practice here?

Gassho

Willow

[Heisoku]

I have a burning question.
It’s a question that’s burning,
Burning right through everything I do, say and think.
Right to the bit when it seems to burn out….but doesn’t quite.
It’s always burning.
My life is on fire and all I have is this burning question?

And if I in any way made you feel outside the sangha I do apologize...for me your status as a member of the sangha goes without saying.

I've come to trust your intentions, Dosho.