Love and Wisdom

[Myozan Kodo]

Hi everyone,
Why do many of us think love and wisdom are separate?

Advice and direction with no love or Metta are often foolish. Blindly loving everything is equally foolish.

Are not love and wisdom like the body-mind? One inseparable and seemless thing?

Gassho
Myozan
An Unsui with Questions

[Myoku]

Oh Myozan,
you speak my heart; since ages - so it seems to me - I feel wisdom and compassion (or love) are one. What wisdom would that be which not develops love, only selfish knowledge at best. What love would that be without a deep wisdom, not true love certainly. Trying to cultivate the one without the other seems pointless to me, actually impossible. Sorry for being so ... emotional suddenly :-)
_()_
Myoku

[Kyonin]

Hi Myozan,

As of late I have been sitting with the fact that on this culture we are very keen on separating stuff into independent units.

We separate the self from the no-self, the good and bad, sadness from happiness, and so forth.

On this separation of things, we lose ourselves and start delusion believing that if we take on life in small bits, it would be more manageable.

And then comes suffering when we can't understand why the system fails. Why is this happening to me? Why no body listens? Why no one seem to think like I do?

We believe that love is a separate unit. It's an emotion that we have no control of. So we let it be, indulging ourselves into irresponsible behaviors that end up hurting us and others.

And then we believe the mind is also a whole different unit that regulates reason and takes care of our decisions.

And the fact remains that we can't even begin to understand that everything is interconnected. That mind and love are one, along with joy and sadness, leisure and work, gold and garbage... it's life itself as a single unit, a whole in all wholeness.

But that's just my two old cents.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Saijun]

Hi everyone,
Why do many of us think love and wisdom are separate?

Advice and direction with no love or Metta are often foolish. Blindly loving everything is equally foolish.

Are not love and wisdom like the body-mind? One inseparable and seemless thing?

Gassho
Myozan
An Unsui with Questions

Hello Myozan,

I think that it's important to define what one means when one says "love." If one is speaking about Metta, Karuna, Mudita, Upekkha, then I think that "love" is absolutely an aspect of the awakened mind and important in the cultivation of wisdom.

However, if one is speaking of the clinging, fearful-of-change "love" that seems to be the western romantic ideal, then I think that it is a type of clinging that can burn through a relationship and obfuscate wisdom with its smoke and ashes. At least, that's what seems to happen in my life when this particular type of clinging sneaks up on me.

Rather than saying "love and wisdom [are] like the body-mind," I would say that the four Divine Abidings and wisdom are like the body-mind; non-clinging care and wisdom is like the body-mind. However, when clinging sneaks in, it can be damaging.

That's my hypothesis on why people see love and wisdom as separate. Just a problem with the terminology.

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

[Myozan Kodo]

If one is speaking about Metta, Karuna, Mudita, Upekkha, then I think that "love" is absolutely an aspect of the awakened mind and important in the cultivation of wisdom.

Hi Saijun,
Yes. That's what I'm talking about. The whole works.
Gassho
Myozan

[Shohei]

Well put Myozan and all! Thank you.

Gassho
Shohei

[disastermouse]

You can't mend this rift, you can't drive two into one - but if you take a step back, you can arrive before the separation. Love and wisdom really aren't anything at all. Are they one, two, two-thousand, or none? Each answer is correct in a given time and place and situation. We get in trouble when we wear the wrong truth for this moment.

The correct action for each moment can't be prescribed ahead of time, I'm afraid (except maybe in rituals, and even then the bells are struck 'wrong' and a cat meows out of turn) - but that isn't the same as saying there IS no correct action.

IMHO.

Chet

[Jundo]

Hi Saijun,
Yes. That's what I'm talking about. The whole works.
Gassho
Myozan

I think that several times in Zen history, folks have come to taste Emptiness and Equanimity without Loving Kindness, Compassion, Empathetic Joy for our fellow Sentient Beings. The samurai's spirit of war was often the result. One can fall into nihilism, or be awakened in only a narrow sense. So, yes, we must take care to have all hand-in-hand.

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

I explained that poorly. Sorry about that.

We talk about you and I as though we're different. That's sensible when we're paying our taxes or feeding ourselves. It's not very sensible when we're considering a motivation for reversing global warming.

Love-as-opposed-to-Wisdom sometimes makes sense if we're trying to make a certain point. Other times, it can be a harmful view.

I hope that was clearer.

Chet

[Myozan Kodo]

I think that several times in Zen history, folks have come to taste Emptiness and Equanimity without Loving Kindness, Compassion, Empathetic Joy for our fellow Sentient Beings. The samurai's spirit of war was often the result. One can fall into nihilism, or be awakened in only a narrow sense. So, yes, we must take care to have all hand-in-hand.

Gassho, J

Hi,
This is very true. Consider those Zen teachers that have lived outside the Precepts, for instance. You have spoken of this many times, Jundo. They might have a great understanding and a cruel heart. Are such people walking he path? Is it enough to have great understanding?

I think-feel not.

Gassho
Myozan

[Myozan Kodo]

Love-as-opposed-to-Wisdom sometimes makes sense if we're trying to make a certain point. Other times, it can be a harmful view.

Hi Chet,
This is right, too, I think. There are times when one must act out of love, even if it seems to make no rational sense. Is it rational to let oneself be beaten by an oppresser or to fight back? Can we love our enemy and is it rational to meet hatred with love?

Gassho
Myozan

[RichardH]

Hi. I have a question. There have been times when I have felt a rapturous universal love... a kind of "Bodhisattva" emotion. It is like an all-embracing warmth.. a loving outreach. But then there are times when there is none of that. There is just walking down the street, and being open. It isn't especially loving in terms of affect... there isn't any particularly strong feeling at all. It is clear and light, and simple.. light in the sense of no heaviness. The former is a high, it is being high on Love. The latter does not feel like love... but I know for sure I am more helpful (and less of a self-conscious "Bodhisattva" nuisance!) when the latter is the case. It is free of cruelty and ill will, just friendly, and responsive, and responsible.... yet, sharp action might also be evoked. How do these descriptions square with "love" ?...

Thank you. gassho kojip.

[Myozan Kodo]

Hi Kojip,
I am no expert. There has been so much written and said on love/metta. I am more of an expert on anger, hate and delusion! ;-)

Maybe what you refer to is a matter of degree. Certainly it is impossible to maintain an intense feeling over a long period. We human beings don't seem to function like that.

It might be that we have an intense insight into metta, a burning feeling that moderates but that offers a well-spring of inspiration after it has passed. It might even be such a powerful feeling that it inspires the rest of our lives, in between, when we're not angry, hateful and deluded.

Returning. Again and again. Endlessly. Falling off and getting up again.

Might that be closer to the mark?

Je ne sais pas.

Gassho
Myozan

[RichardH]

Hi Kojip,
I am no expert. There has been so much written and said on love/metta. I am more of an expert on anger, hate and delusion! ;-)

Maybe what you refer to is a matter of degree. Certainly it is impossible to maintain an intense feeling over a long period. We human beings don't seem to function like that.

It might be that we have an intense insight into metta, a burning feeling that moderates but that offers a well-spring of inspiration after it has passed. It might even be such a powerful feeling that it inspires the rest of our lives, in between, when we're not angry, hateful and deluded.

Returning. Again and again. Endlessly. Falling off and getting up again.

Might that be closer to the mark?

Je ne sais pas.

Gassho
Myozan

Thank you, Myozan. That sounds true enough to me.. There can be a kind of compassion that is both painful and ecstatic. It is a heart opening experience. It doesn't last, can't last, but has lasting effects.


kojip

[Myozan Kodo]

Hi,
Your insights are really helpful guys. Thank you for them.
Gassho
Myozan