Buddha and Christ

[Seiryu]

“I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong.”

― John Lennon

I like this quote a lot. I use have really strong unmoving opinions about God and religions, but recently, all of those ideas and opinions never really helped me. They just gave me something to hold on to and defend, the whole "my idea is right and your just an idiot" thing is such an addictive ego boost.

For me, as Pontus has said, Zen is direct pointing. Direct point to reality itself. When we get in touch with reality, we get in touch with that that may be called God.

...or...

just some ramblings of mine.

[disastermouse]

hallenging the laws of physics, maybe crop circles are made by aliens, maybe laetrile does cure cancer, maybe Loch Ness has a monster. I have my doubts (to the point of not believing really), the evidence seems questionable, but who knows?

What is more, not everyone approaches their faith in Jesus, Jehovah or (the very similar) Amida Buddha and the like in a simple, cartoonish way. At a more subtle level, Amida Buddha and the "Pure Land" have been found quite compatible with Zen Practice ... so why not Jesus? Searching for inner power ... searching for outer power ... yet beyond all thought of "in" or "out".

Gassho, J

Jundo,

Are they compatible with your interpretation of Zen practice? I'm not talking about the historical links or what others believe, but are you actually comfortable with Amida and Pure Land having sway in your own personal practice?

Chet

[Jundo]

... I don't picture God as a father figure sitting on a throne with a long white beard. I'm not that naive. That isn't Christianity to me either. Neither is the sort of Christianity that separates others into different groups and judges them. Neither are the large organizations that use the name but do not practice the spirit of it. But I'm an iconoclast. I was confirmed in the Greek Orthodox church, married in a Catholic church. I don't go to Church, but I love God.. no doubt about it. I pray for others and myself regularly on a daily basis. Faith is an integral part of my life. ... Because, like Zen, I feel that Christianity is about finding oneself in their love and service to others rather than searching for some fabled reward after we meet our end. ... Faith is very personal, and sure there are contradictions. But life is rife with contradiction.

Risho, your words ring my bell! (praying hands or Gassho) Some contradictions, but ultimately no contradictions.

Chet asked ...

Jundo,

Are they compatible with your interpretation of Zen practice? I'm not talking about the historical links or what others believe, but are you actually comfortable with Amida and Pure Land having sway in your own personal practice?

Me, no. I do not chant to Amida or pray to Jesus myself, as that is not my door. Some people prefer tomato soup, some split pea ... some make a lovely tomato pea soup.

For the real "policy wonks" around here ... here is the best article I know on how in China the Zen Folks philosophically wrestled with, and actually came to terms with/merged with, Amida Buddhism. In China and Vietnam for the last several hundred years, the two are basically all mixed together. In fact, Amida Buddhism, and its central messianic figure and image of a "pie in the sky" heaven when we die (or here right now when we come to see the "Pure Land" even amid Samsara) is so similar to the Christian model, that basically the same debate might apply.

WARNING: For true "history/doctrine" wonks and those seriously interested in these questions only! (PDF)

https://sites.google.com/site/jundotreeleaf/ChanPure%20Land%20Dual%20Cultivation.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1

By the way, our little Buddha statue on the Altar in the Zendo may be Shakyamuni ... or it may be Amida (more likely) ...but it is so old, scarred and rubbed down that I can't tell.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

... I don't picture God as a father figure sitting on a throne with a long white beard. I'm not that naive. That isn't Christianity to me either. Neither is the sort of Christianity that separates others into different groups and judges them. Neither are the large organizations that use the name but do not practice the spirit of it. But I'm an iconoclast. I was confirmed in the Greek Orthodox church, married in a Catholic church. I don't go to Church, but I love God.. no doubt about it. I pray for others and myself regularly on a daily basis. Faith is an integral part of my life. ... Because, like Zen, I feel that Christianity is about finding oneself in their love and service to others rather than searching for some fabled reward after we meet our end. ... Faith is very personal, and sure there are contradictions. But life is rife with contradiction.

Risho, your words ring my bell! (praying hands or Gassho) Some contradictions, but ultimately no contradictions.

Chet asked ...

Jundo,

Are they compatible with your interpretation of Zen practice? I'm not talking about the historical links or what others believe, but are you actually comfortable with Amida and Pure Land having sway in your own personal practice?

Me, no. I do not chant to Amida or Jesus myself, as that is not my door. Some people prefer tomato soup, some split pea ... some make a luscious tomato-pea soup.

For the real "policy wonks" around here ... here is the best article I know on how in China the Zen Folks philosophically wrestled with, and actually came to terms with/merged with, Amida Buddhism. In China and Vietnam for the last several hundred years, the two are basically all mixed together. In fact, Amida Buddhism, and its central messianic figure and image of a "pie in the sky" heaven when we die (or here right now when we open our eyes to see the "Pure Land" even in ugly Samsara) is so similar to the Christian model, that basically the same debate might apply.

WARNING: For true "history/doctrine" wonks and those seriously interested in these questions only! (PDF)

https://sites.google.com/site/jundotreeleaf/Chan%20Zen%20Dual%20Chappell%20NEW%20FILE.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1

(i just replaced the original link for higher resolution)

By the way, our little wooden Buddha statue on the Altar in the Zendo may be Shakyamuni ... or it may be Amida (more likely) ... or just a piece of wood ... but it is so old, scarred and rubbed down that I can't tell.

Gassho, J

[Graceleejenkins]

I guess I consider myself both a Buddhist and a Christian. I do not believe in Christian metaphysics. I do not believe in hell or anti-scientific miracles. I do not believe in a father-figure God. So, I guess some Christians would not consider me Christian, but a lot of Christians I know feel the same way I do.

For me, Christianity, is the parable of the love in the New Testament--it is in following the way of a person. Rather like following in the way of Buddha, but not believing in the rather religious elements of Buddhism introduced after Buddha nor in any miracles such as blossoming trees or a thousand Buddhas. In my life, I try to follow what I believe is at the heart of the teachings of Buddha, and I try to follow what I believe is at the heart of the teachings of Christ, which is not all of what may have been written hundreds of years thereafter, but of which I think I still get a sense when I read and follow the teachings of both of these teachers.

Maybe the other thing I identify with from Christianity is forgiveness. I feel if the world practiced forgiveness, we would go a long way. In fact, I think forgiveness may be, even more than understanding, the key to peace.

As for God, I believe everything is all One. That is God to me, if you must put an image to one. Gassho and Peace Be With You, Grace.

[Ekai]

I guess I consider myself both a Buddhist and a Christian. I do not believe in Christian metaphysics. I do not believe in hell or anti-scientific miracles. I do not believe in a father-figure God. So, I guess some Christians would not consider me Christian, but a lot of Christians I know feel the same way I do.

For me, Christianity, is the parable of the love in the New Testament--it is in following the way of a person. Rather like following in the way of Buddha, but not believing in the rather religious elements of Buddhism introduced after Buddha nor in any miracles such as blossoming trees or a thousand Buddhas. In my life, I try to follow what I believe is at the heart of the teachings of Buddha, and I try to follow what I believe is at the heart of the teachings of Christ, which is not all of what may have been written hundreds of years thereafter, but of which I think I still get a sense when I read and follow the teachings of both of these teachers.

Maybe the other thing I identify with from Christianity is forgiveness. I feel if the world practiced forgiveness, we would go a long way. In fact, I think forgiveness may be, even more than understanding, the key to peace.

As for God, I believe everything is all One. That is God to me, if you must put an image to one. Gassho and Peace Be With You, Grace.

Very inspiring Grace.

Gassho,
Ekai

[Rich]

to taste a strawberry.

This is the truth.

What a great country I live in. I can be a Christian and a Buddhist at the same time.

Whatever I am, living in delusion and awakening is happening all the time. But I don't wallow in the delusions, I vow to cut thru them and taste a strawberry.

[Taigu]

Brilliant writing Stephanie.


gassho

Taigu

[RichardH]

It is very scary to contemplate the possibility that my life may have no greater meaning, that there may not be any "plan" or purpose for my life, that I, like many others, could simply suffer misfortunes that were not sent by a divine parent as lessons for me. I think our consolation as Buddhists is that we don't need to be special - there does not need to be a preordained meaning or a cosmic parent with a lesson plan for us, because our individual lives are simply an expression of, and chance to experience, something that is greater than the happenstance of one individual life - the chance to be conscious, to love, to have the courage to do what is right and change the world for the better, to taste a strawberry. Well, some apologists may say, that is what I mean when I say "God" (I suspect Robert Kennedy may be one of them but I cannot say for certain) but I think that is true of only a very small minority of people for whom a Christian faith is important, who believe on some level that death is not a final goodbye to those we love and the efforts we put into our lives.

The idea that Life has an Ultimate Meaning does not hold . This has meaning relative to that, and this has purpose in the context of that, but this and that together have no external reference......no context in which to take measure. Life at once cannot be contained in meaning. This is not the same as saying life is meaningless, because to say "meaningless" is to assign negative meaning. Maybe it is better to say that it is inherently free of either meaning, or absence of meaning.

An Ultimate Cosmic Purpose, no matter how gloriously concieved, is a nightmare scenario where everything is bound, subordinated, and ultimately reduced to that purpose alone. It is the absolutizing of relative and contingent purpose, the fraction consuming the whole.


There is within given relationships, such as "me and my world", deeply valued meanings, but if these meanings becomes absolutized and fixed, the unconditioned joy and freeplay giving rise to the whole picture goes into eclipse. The world in eclipse is an endless reaching for lost Joy, one compensation after another. I know that too well.

Gassho.

[Stephanie]

Thank you all for the kind feedback and replies.

Grace (how fitting a name for this thread, ha!) - I share your view almost exactly but think of myself as an atheist (well, I think of myself as Buddhist, but as far as theist/non-theist goes, that is). So isn't that interesting? I am very curious if the other Christian-identifying folks you know who share your views go to church? If so, which church(es)? I have wondered at times how many Christians - especially how many "dual practicing" Buddhist-Christians - do not really believe in an afterlife or personal God.

This is a highly energized topic for me for a couple of reasons. One is that I live in the so-called Bible Belt and pretty much have to keep my religious views "in the closet" in almost every sector of my life to avoid political fallout that could hurt both my professional and personal life. So I admit I have a little resentment that I have to work so diligently to keep my religious views quiet in just about every other area of my life, and then come into the actual arena of my own "faith" and find again that politicized kow-towing to Christian beliefs.

The other is that, even in the case of people who do not hold the views of God and afterlife I am surrounded by where I live - and find so distasteful - I find the use of the term "God" problematic in a Zen Buddhist context. Yes, we can say, "When I say 'God', I am referring to the Absolute," or whatever, but I think the term still carries with it the sense of an entity. I know from personal experience the longing for some great being to know and care about me and my struggles, and I think it is easy when using the word "God" to let the sense of that into the back door. I find this to be a problem, personally, in my practice, because I cannot accept a false reassurance. I want to push beyond that, to freedom from fooling myself into feeling better about my loneliness because "God cares." I too easily see how it is a trick of my own mind to contemplate a God. I just don't feel like anything like God is really there, in terms of an entity. And I feel the same way about Amida Buddha, Allah, or any other similar religious system.

Actually, the theological views that I find least in conflict with my sensibility are polytheistic views, not that I believe in gods either, but at least polytheistic views tend to reflect the sense of a universe full of many different forces that are neutral toward humanity, rather than parental and nurturing. As an avid fan of nature documentaries, I see the forces that promote life in completely unsentimental terms. And I find more and more I like it that way - it makes life far more mysterious and awe-inspiring to contemplate, when I see it as reflecting some tendency or law of the universe, rather than something planned by a parental entity.

I do think that there is a huge shift between seeing a universe directed by God and seeing a godless universe. I think even some professed atheists hold what I would see as a theistic view - this feeling that there is a plan, a meaning, and a purpose for us to find and follow. The second you start to shift away from that, there is the feeling of a cold wind, a chill - "I really am alone and I really do have to figure this out for myself. There is no parent, waiting for me at the end of my recital to give me a hug. Maybe little Johnny really did just die for no reason, and all of his parents' terrible suffering goes unheard by anyone or anything else other than just us humans." There is of course a deep melancholy in this view which is why I have no agenda to try to sway people from what they need to get through the night. But just as on the savannah, in the zendo there is no sentimentality. A lion kills another lion's cubs, one person kills another - what do we do? Do we reach for "God" or do we meet each other in this moment without anything extra?

The interesting subtext for me of my strong sense of a Godless universe is my just as strong sense of the power and centrality of love in the human experience. The way this sense of love as a powerful and guiding force is expressed in Christianity resonates strongly with my own experience. I believe love is the only thing that saves us, in the end. And love sometimes does feel to me like it comes from something "outside" - how in times I feel so lost, love arises and shows me the way. But even with this experience, I just don't feel this has anything to do with God, with an entity that is guiding me. I find it altogether more mysterious than that. So I can see how some can feel Christian strongly while also sharing my allergy to the metaphysics. But I do think this matter is more than just a matter of terminology.

[Stephanie]

An Ultimate Cosmic Purpose, no matter how gloriously concieved, is a nightmare scenario where everything is bound, subordinated, and ultimately reduced to that purpose alone. It is the absolutizing of relative and contingent purpose, the fraction consuming the whole.

Beautifully put. This captures exactly my sense of how life and the universe are actually more mysterious and awe-inspiring without it all revolving around one single, preconceived "purpose." Whatever it all is, we are all it, not socks in a cosmic washing machine where God is the sole "it" around which everything else spins, stupidly, throughout eternity.

[Graceleejenkins]

Grace (how fitting a name for this thread, ha!) - I share your view almost exactly but think of myself as an atheist (well, I think of myself as Buddhist, but as far as theist/non-theist goes, that is). So isn't that interesting? I am very curious if the other Christian-identifying folks you know who share your views go to church? If so, which church(es)? I have wondered at times how many Christians - especially how many "dual practicing" Buddhist-Christians - do not really believe in an afterlife or personal God.

Hi, Stephanie. Now that you mention it and I‘ve been thinking about it, I seem to find the right church by just walking into different churches and trying them out. Kind of like how I found Treeleaf. I just tried places. For instance, I walked into one new Buddhist temple, and the monk wouldn’t shake my hand. Although he was nice about it and arranged someone to stand-in , still, I knew it wasn’t going to be the place for me. Another temple had a female priest, but the atmosphere was a little scary to me. I just happened to try Treeleaf and found that the general openness, inclusiveness, and philosophy fit my needs.

I realize I have done the same thing with Christian churches. I stay completely away from any that stress, evangelism. If I walk in and the sermon is about how we aren’t “descended from monkeys” or that women should be submissive to men, I leave. However, if I glean something from the service or sermon, I may stay awhile to see if there is a fit. By odd chance, I have found the most inclusion and tolerance in the Methodist church, although there have been other denominations, too. And definitely not all Methodist churches have been churches where I could stay, but at least three of them have been.

To answer your question, in these churches, I would saythat about 5% of the members are almost in complete alignment with my views, another 5% are mostly in agreement, and the other 90% are more traditional to varying degrees, but most are still very open, inclusive, and kind, and most accept my belief in the love and example of Christ as being enough. (Which is funny, because I once saw a television comedy depict the Methodist Church as very strict and unyielding and ridiculous, and I couldn’t even recognize it as such—I guess it has everything to do with the minister and the particular church congregation.) This is about the same percentage that I would guess I would find at Treeleaf to be mostly in alignment with my beliefs because only a small percent are Christian and many of our members would probably have differing beliefs regarding Karma and reincarnation. But nonetheless, most accept my belief in the teachings of Buddha and in the importance of Zazen as enough and graciously accommodate other, different beliefs I may have from them.

I’m thinking that it may be harder to find such a shurch in theSouth, but I don’t know because I have only belonged to churches in the North. I guess you just keep trying until you find a place where you can both thrive and contribute. And sometimes, even after finding such a place, it or you may change and you have to begin the search anew.

I hope you find that Treeleaf fits into your needs, because I know that I enjoy your contributions. Gassho, Grace.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Hi again Stephanie,
Thank you and please let me share a few reflections. I agree with most of what your write, but there are some things I don't quite agree with, so I thought I'd throw my thoughts out here. Just ideas, so don't mistake them for claiming to have any answer.

Even in the case of people who do not hold the views of God and afterlife I am surrounded by where I live - and find so distasteful - I find the use of the term "God" problematic in a Zen Buddhist context.

I find your distaste in other people's beliefs somewhat distasteful...
But also very human and understandable. Thanks for being honest.

Zen is the direct pointing path and what I like with this path is the "see for yourself" approach. We don't have to blindly accept what we're told. We can experience, realize emptiness directly. But countless thousands have realized God too. They will never be able to describe their experience of God in words and neither will I be able to express my experience of emptiness, other than in action, by making the Buddha's truth real in my own life. We expect christians to be tolerant of our views and get annoyed when they aren't, but are we always so tolerant ourselves? For me, the proof is in the pudding, not in the books. And although I fail miserably quite often in this regard, I believe there is wisdom in minding one's own practice.

Emptiness was not what I thought it would be (and I don't claim to have realized emptiness completely, far from it!) And I suspect many people who realized God didn't find what they thought they would either. So it all comes down to what we mean by God. But trying to define God seems futile. As futile as trying to define Buddha nature, emptiness, the Unborn.

In a Zen buddhist context the term God may be problematic. But in a Christian context, emptiness is also very problematic. Who got it right? Who has the answer? We must have some faith in this path, or we wouldn't walk it. But personally, I don't think buddhists have the whole answer and other religions don't. As buddhists, we can respect other people's views and try not to see our own views as the truth. Also, let's not forget that the vast majority of buddhists world wide worship Buddhas as god-like dieties. And the Lotus sutra if taken literally isn't very close the views of most people here. Are we a small "elite" among buddhists who got it? Maybe, but I'm not so sure. When the ego has left the building and there is only the one moon, none of this matters anyway. There is only the spring outside of time, where flowers bloom on a withered tree. No Buddha, no God. The question only exists when there are two moons.

Gassho,
Pontus

[galen]

Suzuki, in ZMBM has a chapter called God Giving. The creator of all there is (emptiness, and the expanse there of). He uses the god framing to make a case for giving... 'To give is nonattachment, (in his words) that is, just not to attach to anything is to give'.

In a christian sense, she created All, and how can we attach to anything, if we are only borrowing it for this short space in time called life. He fits the god essence into the sense that we create nothing, it came form nowhere and no where to be taken, and we should only be totally in that grace of gratitude and the continual bow.

He sees zazen, as god, from there everything is created, no ownership needed. When we stand from sitting, that process of creating begins anew.

It seems most of us probably have a bad taste in our mouths of what Western christianity has become, not `this god thing, so much. So it seems that if god is the creator of all, then she is also creating this so-called unchristian christianity, and the lessons that come from that. After all, students of zen, can, or could be grateful for this same thing for helping to bring us to this presence.

[Omoi Otoshi]

Thanks Galen,
I had to take that wonderful book down from the book shelf and just reread that chapter! That's a very interesting way of looking at Zazen, God and emptiness.

/Pontus