Love and Zen

[JustBen]

I think I get what you're saying, Hans. I also have trouble reconciling love--as I understand it--with Buddhist ideals of non-attachment. Whether this is a lack of understanding or a lack of enlightenment on my part, I suppose only time and practice will tell.

As for the presumably-contrived behavior of some teachers and practitioners, I don't know what to think. Could it be that it's not contrived for them, but would be for us? The adaptation of Buddhism for the West is still in its infancy, I think.

[Hans]

Hello,

thank you for all your input. Obviously defining love would take aeons...which is why I am intentionally using it here in the broades sense of the meaning, though I am excluding superficial and egotistic ideas about it.

Having said that - basically most Zen practitioners I know a little bit better on a personal level do a lot of things out of love, whether this means marrying someone, choosing one job over another one etc..... yet when I look at the spoken or written expressions of most people engaging in Zen practise, I see wonderful re-formulations of old school style nature poetry or references to the ancestors of our lineage, but I don't seem to have read/heard/seen a lot that explicitly mentions the kind of love that I assume is nevertheless being felt by many.

The slight concern I have is that a lot of us (or let's just talk about me then) are still acting in very contrived ways in which to express their living Zen...and maybe all I wanted to point to is my gut feeling that at some point we in the West will have to be more independent in our expression of our own life reality, instead of conjuring up rice paddies and mist covered mountain cliffs.

This is not a call to arms, an argument or anything really...just me sharing a gut feeling.


Gassho and thanks once more for your thoughtful responses,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Rich]

There are so many ways to express love and I think they all involve some caring compassionate action even if it is just listening attentively. LOVE is such a loaded word maybe that's why western zen teachers have shied away from it.

fav love quotes
Joan Baez - Love is just a four letter word.
tina Turner - What's love got to with it, what's love but a second hand emotion.
Beatles - All you need is love.
Beethoven - I can live only wholly with you or not at all

And the #1 fav is The Beatles - And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make

[Jinyo]

Hello fellow Treeleafers,

I just wanted to share a few impressions, feelings and thoughts about a topic that I feel has deserved too little attention (to my limited knowledge) in the wider Zen discourse. This is not meant as an attempt to promote any kind of teaching etc., it really is just sharing a few impressions.

Although there is no such thing as a set Western mind, or Asian mind (no matter what some imperialists might have wanted us to believe), one notion that I feel is vital to the overall cultural makeup of who I am as a western European is the notion of love.

Now of course the term is much abused on a daily basis and can mean nothing and everything at the same time....we have erotic love, romantic love, or the kind of love called "agape". However, due to cultural and historical reasons, the Buddhist and Zen ancestors hardly ever mention it outside of the topic of attachment.

My gut tells me that in order for Zen to truly take root in the West, those following this path will have to integrate this cornerstone of our western cultural heritage, love, much more deeply into their Zen practise.

Even most western Zen teachers only mention love in passing, although it is apparent that their life actions too often follow the path that their inner love for someone or something creates.

Having recently read through Taigen Leighton's Zen Questions, this whole topic was highlighted again in the chapter on the Sufi poet Rumi (for whom love is a key concept).

However I twist and turn it, the compassion and unselfish joy described in the Sutras and Suttas seems to be related to , but isn't the equivalent of unselfish or even sacrificial love (to me).

If truth be told, this bugs me. It bugs me that some of the strongest experiences that shape my life again and again are not adressed adequately (as far as I can see/feel) by the tradition as it is practised today.

What are your thoughts on this?

My feeling is that those who identify as cultural westerners (or those with similar cultural feelings towards this mystery called love) should have to work on bridging that gap....but maybe I am completely wrong.


Gassho and thank you for your input,


Hans Chudo Mongen

Hans - would you be able to say a little bit more. I'm new to any indepth study of Zen but I haven't yet come across anything that particularly jars with a western understanding of love. I tend to agree with Nindo's thoughts but I'm wondering if I'm missing something in what you write. Can you give some concrete examples of how you would like to re-express things?

An interesting topic,

Gassho

Willow

[Heisoku]

My tuppence worth on this topic is what we mean by 'love' in the west? Is it compassion, loyalty to one person, a subservience to an emotion? And what is 'love' called in Asia? Compassion, acceptance, harmony?
Perhaps the roots of (western) love are the same as in Asia but have been lost in translation in the sutras? Or is it that more attention has been paid to the roots of suffering that the liberation of 'love' has been overlooked? Just some questions...... I too am reading Taigen's book! Maybe this is an area to explore in more depth, after all there is certainly as much 'love' visible in the east as in the west!!!

[RichardH]

Hi Hans.

There is a wonderful Theravadin monk I know who's mother recently died. He has been a monk for maybe 40 years, and has been abbot of several monasteries. About ten years ago his elderly mother took ill and did not recover. My friend stepped down as abbot, returned to Canada, and moved in with his mother to nurse her.... she was very frail and could not take care of herself. He did this for ten years, which is tough for a Theravadin monk living by strict vinaya. His focus was nursing his mother, but he still gave talks from time to time, and lead the occasional weekend retreat. One time during a public talk, a lay person who was aware of his situation challenged him.. and told him he was (horrors) "attached" to his mother. This monk's response was angry.. "Ofcourse I'm attached to my mother.. SHE'S MY MOTHER!!". Now that is Theravada Buddhism, where sometimes you'll fine hard cases who just want to kiss this suffering world goodbye. But, I have found a pretty cold attitude among some Zen folk to... a kind of sublime sociopathy for an "illusory" world. It is not a stretch to imagine the Zen soldier hacking his way through Nanking. So.. yes, if I understand you correctly, I agree, more loving commitment... less selfish preoccupation with cool non-attachment, and the dissolving of every human value in emptiness to that end.

Gassho, kojip.

[Dosho]

Hans,

I always assumed the reason that love is not put into words in the sutras is because love really cannot be put into words! It is there, in all the words, but explained by none of them.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Hans]

Hello,

thank you Nindo for your reply. I personally do not find a gap in my practise either, but I do feel there is a gap in terms of what gets mentioned time and again in this Zen tradition as it is unfolding today and what doesn't.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Hallo Hans,

it's true that there is not much talk about the topic of love, but I still don't see a gap. For me, love comes out of this practice quite naturally, when appreciation and gratitude arise. I've had periods during sesshin where I was overwhelmed with love for all the other participants and in tears. I'm just back from a long hiking trip in Austria and I felt so much love for plants, animals, stones, my breath. I've seen love even through anger at some occasions.
As you say, love "can mean nothing and everything", so I think the word would serve more as a hindrance .... but love is certainly in this practice, in many ways, at its very core - this is my experience.

I'm not going to touch on the meeting of romantic love and zen practice - maybe because 20 years into my relationship, love in this respect is still romance but also so much more, and one word just doesn't capture it. Of course the relationship is the real testing ground for any fuzzy lovely feelings that come up on the cushion.

I'll be interested what others have to say!

In love
Nindo

[Hans]

Hello fellow Treeleafers,

I just wanted to share a few impressions, feelings and thoughts about a topic that I feel has deserved too little attention (to my limited knowledge) in the wider Zen discourse. This is not meant as an attempt to promote any kind of teaching etc., it really is just sharing a few impressions.

Although there is no such thing as a set Western mind, or Asian mind (no matter what some imperialists might have wanted us to believe), one notion that I feel is vital to the overall cultural makeup of who I am as a western European is the notion of love.

Now of course the term is much abused on a daily basis and can mean nothing and everything at the same time....we have erotic love, romantic love, or the kind of love called "agape". However, due to cultural and historical reasons, the Buddhist and Zen ancestors hardly ever mention it outside of the topic of attachment.

My gut tells me that in order for Zen to truly take root in the West, those following this path will have to integrate this cornerstone of our western cultural heritage, love, much more deeply into their Zen practise.

Even most western Zen teachers only mention love in passing, although it is apparent that their life actions too often follow the path that their inner love for someone or something creates.

Having recently read through Taigen Leighton's Zen Questions, this whole topic was highlighted again in the chapter on the Sufi poet Rumi (for whom love is a key concept).

However I twist and turn it, the compassion and unselfish joy described in the Sutras and Suttas seems to be related to , but isn't the equivalent of unselfish or even sacrificial love (to me).

If truth be told, this bugs me. It bugs me that some of the strongest experiences that shape my life again and again are not adressed adequately (as far as I can see/feel) by the tradition as it is practised today.

What are your thoughts on this?

My feeling is that those who identify as cultural westerners (or those with similar cultural feelings towards this mystery called love) should have to work on bridging that gap....but maybe I am completely wrong.


Gassho and thank you for your input,


Hans Chudo Mongen