No gain - or what can I gain from posting this?

[AlanLa]

The deeper I get into Zen the more I bump up against the non-concept of "no gain." As I examine my life I am amazed at how almost everything I do seems to be for some sort of gain, or at the very least to minimize loss, which is to try and maintain what I've previously gained. Gain as motivation for behavior seems so very human, yet I am told my motivation needs to be more pure, more for others gain than my own, but I can still gain by helping another gain, so where does it end?

But anyway, it's like human nature (gain) vs. buddha nature (no gain) even though I know that duality is not the right way to look at it. So I just thought I would throw this out there so that I (oops, I meant to say you ) could gain some insight into "no gain."

[Jundo]

Hi Alan,

We live both ways, experiencing life both ways like two sides of a no sided coin ...

Needing to gain to live and move forward ... setting your eye on the goals and things necessary to "get the job done" in life ...

... and dropping thoroughly all thought of anything to gain or in need of gaining ... no place to go or in need of going in a Buddha's Eye ...

... At Once, As One. Gain-No-Gain. One can non-gain, in Shikantaza, this way of the Gainless Gain.

Also, in doing so, do not fall into excess and become a prisoner of the greed for excess gain, or gain of hurtful things. All things in Moderation, and travel a healthful path.

Work for the needs and good of others sometimes, work for the needs and good of oneself sometimes ... self and other ultimately not two.

It ain't rocket science.

Gassho, J

[AlanLa]

Maybe I am completely missing the point, but I think I just explained myself poorly, so let me try again by keeping it much more personal. When I look at my motivations for behavior, they are almost always centered on gain in some way. It's subtle, but there is a "what can I get out of this?" process I go through, and if I won't get much then I won't do that behavior. I don't consider myself a selfish person, but I think I am self-ish in the sense of gain as a subtle but powerful motivating force. I doubt I am alone in this, but when I look around I see myself surrounded by people WAY more self-less, way more giving, way more motivated by no gain than I am. It's like I am an only child, but my "me, me, me-ness" is less overt and quieter. My practice has taught me to not be attached to the results of my actions for gain, for which I am very grateful, but when I look deeper into what motivates my actions I bump into gain again and again.

[disastermouse]

Alan,

The thoughts are not problematic, it's identifying with the thoughts as 'mine'. Actually, it's not even identifying per se, it's not being able to NOT identify.

Identifying in a somewhat compassionate gaining idea (I want my son to grow up to be a good man) or a rather harmless one (Cheetos would be AWESOME right now) is not necessarily problematic, but being trapped in harmful gaining ideas IS problematic. It's the inability to forego identification that's the problem.

It's a very delicate dance, IMHO. Complete dis-identification, while freeing, can be somewhat passionless and dry. There are times for that, but not everyone wants to live on such a 'cold mountain'. On the other hand, the temptation to justify harmful attachments and identification can absolutely poison a spiritual path (IMHO).

Just a few thoughts from a guy who has advocated the former and lived far too much of the later (Sometimes in the deluded defense of the former - ain't irony grand?)

Chet

[AlanLa]

Oh Chet, I am sooo glad you chimed in here. I knew you could cut through this. Thank you! Very helpful.

I was exaggerating a bit above to make a point. My life is pretty much dedicated to the benefit of people with disabilities, but I do get gain from those activities, and that's where I was trapped. I will sit with this some more. Thanks again.

[disastermouse]

Alan,

Being able to respond in a discussion allows me to clarify things for myself. So I also have to thank you for prodding us into thinking about it. A well-asked or timed question is often more powerful than several educated answers, IMHO.

Chet

[AlanLa]

You are very kind.
Gassho

[Graceleejenkins]

I’ve never understood this concept that because you feel good doing something, then you are doing it for gain. Phrasing it that way, of course we do everything for some level of gain! And so what? Just a trick of phrasing. If you do something and feel nothing, or if you do something and feel bad, is that somehow better? Just a trick of phrasing. The phrasing that works for me is: if you do you something, do you necessarily expect something (an outcome or otherwise) in return from those people or things that you’ve done something for or with, and if you don’t get what you expect, are you upset, or do you have an equanimity about it? Gassho, Grace.

[Taigu]

No gain is in itself its own reward.
as soon as it is manifested, snow flakes whirl in the furnace
the steel of cities and the glass of tower sing along
nobody is left to see it
for no gain is when
doing is just doing
going is just going
undoing just as is
no doer, goer, undoer
no seeker
not even the shadow of it all

Sawaki Kodo used to say: we don't eat to take a shit.

to expect, to be upset, same old songs.
Nothing comes, ok. Something comes, ok.
You see, Grace, in our practice-understanding the giver, the gift and the person receiving it are exactly one.

the giver,the gift and the person receiving it are exactly one:


Buddha-Dharma-Sangha


gassho

Taigu

[Jundo]

No gain is in itself its own reward.
as soon as it is manifested, snow flakes whirl in the furnace
the steel of cities and the glass of tower sing along
nobody is left to see it
for no gain is when
doing is just doing
going is just going
undoing just as is
no doer, goer, undoer
no seeker
not even the shadow of it all

Ha! A hell of a lack of drive for a guy who works so hard!

For the guys wanting to catch up with me here is one of my typical day: up at 5:30, practice till 6:10, leave home at 6:30, in the train to Osaka, JR line, change in Osaka Umeda to catch up the 7:10 train to Kita Senri. Arrrives at Kita Senri at 7:40. then a 25 minutes walk to my school. I get there around 8:00 when I am lucky. Work with a single lunch pause of 20 mimutes until 16:30 or 17:30. Walk back to the station and catch the train for Osaka to teach in Alliance Francaise. Lessons start at 18:30 or 19:30 and last two hours. By the time I finish I have been either commuting half asleep or teaching half awake all day. When I come home, it is between 21:30 or 22:00, if nobody commited suicide on the JR line ( which slows down everything)...I have then to do Dokusan three evenings a week until very late...And no time to eat, read, socialize. Trains are places where I catch up with sleep, as most Japanese do. When I arrived in Japan, I could not believe it, they were all sleeping in trains!!!Now, I am one of them.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10022-going-for-2-days-and-a-very-important-update

But, from what I heard about your pay check, I get the "no reward" part.

Gasshoooooooo, J

[Taigu]

gasshooooooooooooooooooooooo,


Taigu

[Graceleejenkins]

the giver,the gift and the person receiving it are exactly one:

Buddha-Dharma-Sangha

gassho

Taigu

I love and can understand this phrasing! I've heard it here before, of course, but didn't apply it to the concept of gain (more to the concept of one), but it is perfect to me. Perhaps incorrectly, I would say from this perspective, it's all for gain, which is the same as no gain. Gassho, Grace.

[Heisoku]

This kind of reverses the impact of the phrase, " No pain, no gain" !!

[Dosho]

This kind of reverses the impact of the phrase, " No pain, no gain" !!

Well, the motto "All the pain, none of the gain!" doesn't really put people's butts on the zafus.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Graceleejenkins]

Originally Posted by HeisokuThis kind of reverses the impact of the phrase, " No pain, no gain" !!


Well, the motto "All the pain, none of the gain!" doesn't really put people's butts on the zafus.

Gassho,
Dosho

Heisoku and Dosho,

I love your wit! I'm still smiing five minutes later! Gassho, Grace.